Being Guyanese in tech is an interesting experience. FWIW I have yet to meet another Guyanese person at work. In every workplace I go to the experience is similar - initially the south asian folks approach me, but then once they realize we're not that culturally similar I end up in a sort of limbo. Not to say that folks aren't welcoming, but every large company ends up having sort of cultural cliques, and I never seem to fit into any of them.
Curious if there are any other Guyanese folks out there who're willing to share their experience.
I am British born, with Trinidadian and Guyanese parents. I've had a very similar experience, not just in tech but throughout all areas of my life. I look Indian, but culturally it's very different.
Everyone always (perhaps South Asians more commonly) asks where I'm from. I say I'm British. They ask "no, really". I say Trinidadian and Guyanese heritage. They say "you look like you are from India, your family must be from India". It does get a bit tiresome.
The only time it actually _really_ annoys me is when I have to fill out forms with ethnicity. There is never Asian-Caribbean, but always Black-Caribbean, so I always feel that I am never being represented.
Out of curiosity, what kind of forms ask for your ethnicity? Maybe it's because I'm living in Europe, but I've never been asked for that in my entire life, and if I would, I would find it very strange ..
It's very common in the U.S. It's ostensibly done to gather evidence of discrimination. Most government forms require it, and large employers are required to report the racial/ethnic makeup of their staff to the government, along with gender, past military service, and persons with disabilities. California recently added a requirement for VCs to ask the founders they fund their sexual orientation.
People have written entire books on the politics behind how the government comes up with the sometimes-illogical categories into which folks are divided.
In the US, governmental departments and large employers frequently ask for ethnicity on all sorts of forms to help the organization ensure that it is meeting its DEI goals.
I used to work with a carpenter from Trinidad. This was in the southern US, and at an employer where I was probably the only college educated person. I recall them as being very professional but able to socialize easily with everyone else, and they were also insanely good at chess.
Despite externally-incited ethnic conflict, Guyana was a comparatively post-tribal melting pot of cultures and social classes. e.g. kids stack-ranked nationally into peer-group schools around age 10, based on standardized test. Outside Guyana:
Are you from India?
West Indies | South America | Guyana
Where are your parents from?
A couple hundred years ago, my ancestors left India
Oh <disappointed>
[every time: wait, what if I had said yes? nevermind]
It has become so exhausting doing this dialogue tree with Indian folks - particularly true for the older population. it's their opener for small talk...
Indian here. I've never fit in any of the traditional Indian cliques. Such a blessing! At the end of the day, you're going to lose your individuality over the group or sub-group you're identifying with. And you're going to be pulled into their politics and drama. Read Naval's thoughts on the importance of solitude and dis-identification with any group, in order to be able to become the individual you are meant to be. And thank your stars that none of the traditional Indian cliques wants you.
Hah, appreciate the response. Being able to stay out the drama is nice - though I do find my self sometimes craving the support structures and sense of belonging that these cliques provide. Especially when at work all I hear around me is Mandarin or Hindi, in the hallways, at lunch, essentially in any context except full-on work meetings where it almost feels like they're _forced_ to speak English for me.
My 0.02 cents on this issue: it is terribly rude to speak Mandarin or Hindi, when in a mixed group setting at work, in the USA. Be happy you didn't become one of these rude people. Support structures... I get it. It does help to have a sort of extended-family sometimes. Here's what I've found helpful: get into an activity where such support structures organically form. And you can have the support structure without attendant ethno-centric drama and politics.
There are also downsides to being in these ethnocentric cliques. Know the crabs in a bucket effect, and the saying about how you can't become a prophet in your own town. There's a strong anchoring effect your own people have regarding you. When they see you rising up, they wonder why you're succeeding and they're not, and try to drag you down (instead of celebrating your rise). There's a strong hierarchy within these cliques, and you're not supposed to break-out of your "correct position" in the hierarchy.
Also, if it helps to know this: I have relatives who are thick in the middle of their Indian cliques. What do they do when they're not with their clique-members? Trash-talk about them.
I appreciate the response, and it does indeed help. Maybe I'm not missing out on much after all.
The activity is good advice. Some of my closest friends I've meet though hobbies I enjoyed - I'll just need to apply the same strategy, though it definitely feels tougher to do without having school as a crutch to force socializing.
i left my home country and generally stayed away from most expat groups primarily to get away from the people i was being identified with and pretty much avoid all the things you mention.
I haven't thought about this in a long time, but as we were leaving Guyana, I remember my paternal grandfather warning me to stay away from the Guyanese in America: "they will just try to pull you down to their level."
I've heard similar sentiments, but I've always felt like there's something pernicious about this attitude, similar to self-internalized racism. "Down to their level" == the same "disadvantaged" state of affairs that we come from.
Born Guyanese, but only lived there until I was 3, then we moved to St. Lucia. Have lots of memories from visiting over summers and Christmas multiple times when I was a kid.
Mostly consider myself Lucian and I feel like I've assimilated into the American tech population. My history now is just a interesting fun fact. Don't meet too many people from the Caribbean in general in tech circles, so it's always fun to get a reminder that they're out there.
As a die hard cricket fan I am pretty well aware of the talented Guyanese cricketers, most notably Shivnarine Chanderpaul. I think most of your Indian colleagues likely follow cricket so that could be a great way to start bonding with them. Of course, if you don't follow cricket then that's a useless advice!
Beyond this, I would suggest learning a little bit about the common topics we "Desi" people talk about at work. In the US most of us will talk about local issues way more than anything happening back in India. This is partly because India is quite siloed. So there is a good chance that people are talking about elections these days.
Btw language barriers play a huge role. I understand Spanish and Portuguese better than I understand many Indian languages. In many cases, I can't even figure out which language people are speaking. (As an aside, it is possible that some of your colleagues are not speaking Hindi but some other language altogether.) None of my Indian colleagues in my university speak my native language. Many of them don't speak Hindi. So we communicate only in English.
Well, TIL! I had always assumed that Hindi was a sort of lingua franca in India, taught in the schools alongside the regional language. Guess that is not so, then? (Is there a lingua franca in today's India at all, then? English?)
My dad's side of the family is indo-guyanese (and he was specifically in tech for his whole career). It's interesting, they've (and I, to a lesser extent) reported something similar, where every once in a great while people from India will recognize our last name and then slowly realize we don't have much in common culturally. Our food is "caribbean-indian" for instance (apparently Trinidad has something similar), it's kind of different than what you'd get from in a regular Indian restaurant.
The comment the author made about the caste system not coming to Guyana tracks too, my aunt has encountered people making quips about it at work every once in a blue moon.
I have met two other Guyanese people in the US outside of friends of my family. One of them was actually someone I was friends with in Guyana. Purely by coincidence we went to the same US high school and came across each other in a hallway. The other had moved here when he was about 2 years old.
Shouldn't be surprised. It's a country the size of England with the population of a large neighborhood in Brooklyn.
As an American of South Asian ancestry, I have always been intrigued by other South Asian diaspora communities like the ones in Guyana, Trinidad and South Africa. I wonder if the cultural evolution of those South Asian communities can be used to forecast how Indian American culture will evolve. One key difference of course is that immigration from India to the US is ongoing while it stopped in Guyana for the most part and may have led to more cultural evolution.
I had a Guyanese coworker at my last company. I initially thought she was Indian based on her name and looks. Her background made us have a lot to talk about and we were good friends.
Wow, this is the first tech podcast I've ever found with a guyanese host - also interestingly they appear to have a carribbean-focused cricket site that appears to be still maintained:
Might be tiring if South Asians start referring to cricket as one of first points of conversation as well as many average Indians are still unaware of the broader history
You have to kind of push your way into circles if you want to make friends at work. Cliquishness is kind of natural, but it can be overcome with a little Type A extrovertedness
> Exxon is the operator of the Stabroek Block, with 45% interest, Hess Guyana Exploration Ltd. holds 30% interest and China National Offshore Oil Corporation (CNOOC) Petroleum Guyana Limited holds 25% interest. Last year, the three companies earned $1.3 trillion in profits – entirely tax-free in Guyana.. the Stabroek Block partners are allowed to recover 75% of the oil produced to recover their investment costs, the remaining 25% is considered profit, which is split between Guyana and the Stabroek Block consortium, giving each 12.5%.
> However, the consortium pays a 2% royalty from its share to Guyana. From its 14.5% Guyana then has to pay taxes for the oil companies... for 2023, the Government of Guyana (GoG) had to pay the combined sum of $306 billion in income taxes for ExxonMobil Guyana Limited and its Stabroek Block partners, Hess and CNOOC according to the companies’ audited financial statements, while for the same period Guyana earned $336 billion from its oil.
You consider it a "massive win" going from - per capita - the 4th richest country in the world [1] to one so poor you have an ~82% food insecurity rate and ~53% in extreme poverty [2]?
Guyana is considered part of the Caribbean because they speak 100% English…well creole English (broken English) to be precise.
Just like American Indians, the natives there are called Amerindian.
There’s also a huge Dutch history…dating back to the 1600 if I remember correctly.
WOW! It’s amazing to see Guyana mentioned on HN.
If you rally want to know Guyanese, get invited to one of our parties. Fun and down-to-earth folks…well most, some can definitely carry a massive ego seed.
If you haven’t met anyone in tech - greetings! A pleasure to meet you. 20 years building successful companies and products in the USA.
Side note: creoles are accepted as version of French/English etc. that evolved on a different timeline while getting heavy influences from the local languages. For a while it was common to call them "broken" or "bastardized" [0], in language circles that's pretty much a thing of the past I'd say. Same way we don't call French broken Latin.
The map of Guyana at the top of this article listed a location called Kamuda Village, and I thought that sounded interesting, so I checked it out on Google Search and Google Maps.
There's basically nothing about it on the English Internet. A point exists on Google Maps and some auto-generated SEO spam pages exist probably for that reason. There are no photos of the location, the terrain view just shows trees. No roads nearby. It's a few hundred meters from the marginally better documented Kukui River. The Internet has a video of some kids at another part of this river who take a raft across it every day to get to school.
It looks like there are lots of places in Guyana like this. Inhabited but undocumented, at least on the public Internet. It's fascinating to me that in an era where you just assume everything is online, there's so much of the world that still isn't.
Good read, sent it to my Kindle.
It was the CIA who messed up that country in the modern era.
Glad they found oil and now have insane GDP growth.
Hope they don't ruin the Amazon rainforest nearby.
Hope the racial tensions ease down and infrastructure is built up, so I can visit one day.
> Glad they found oil and now have insane GDP growth.
Guyana has weak political institutions and high corruption & tribalism. It’s more likely to become a poor resource-cursed nation than a successful one.
I truly hope this isn’t the case, but if history teaches us a lesson..
I can't speak to western europe, but the clear devotion the US and Canada have to capital makes this difficult to buy as a general difference. I suspect the distinction in corruption between the west and the rest of the world must come from a working person's perspective.
And I would love to hear from any non-westerners here as I suspect it's impossible to get a meaningful evaluation from the west.
I’m a non-Westerner (Nigerian in particular). Corruption in developing/underdeveloped countries is extremely worse than in developed countries.
My country is a fitting example. Most citizens (of all classes) don’t pay taxes, people pay petty bribes to violate laws, government officers request for bribes to carry out mundane activities like getting a driver’s license or passport, and citizens are happy to oblige.
Everyone wants to bypass the law and feel smart, not realizing that it makes the whole system terrible and everyone poorer in the long run (people generally don’t want to make long-term capital investments in corrupt countries, so that’s why most of Africa struggles to get foreign investment).
This kind of petty corruption is hard to explain to a Westerner who hasn’t experienced it. And it’s no surprise that corruption is keeping African nations (and many nations from other continents) behind.
I appreciate your comment. I presume you prefer the west (at least in terms of political and economic stability) to your home country from your comment. Do you have any concerns about how capital openly purchases the interests of politicians in the us? I guess I had written off the difference in citizen comfort to the mountains of cash americans roll around on.
> Do you have any concerns about how capital openly purchases the interests of politicians in the us?
The U.S. and the West at large aren’t perfect, but it fairs much better than most of the world in preventing corruption.
Capital also purchases influence in developing/underdeveloped countries, but in a much worse way. It’s often very cheap because desperate locals are willing to sell out their country for any meager amount.
Here’s a fitting example: Benny Steinmetz (a mining tycoon) paid $8.5 million in bribes to the spouse of Guinea’s former President to obtain exploration permits for a mine [1].
Steinmetz sold 51% of the mine shortly after for $2.5 billion [2]. In other words, he extracted 300x the bribe, and the Guinean official never bothered to think her country was being robbed in broad daylight by the bribe she received.
Many similar cases occur in Africa, wherein foreign companies pay cheap bribes to rob countries of their resources.
The African leaders (and populace) are often willing to part with their resources for cash rather than harnessing it for internal development (this part is difficult, unlike the easy way of collecting cash and spending it foolishly).
Add in endless petty corruption, and the result is the mediocrity of many countries that we see.
You right corruption happen in 100% countries at a level or another.
GP says that looking at history, oil in a country soil seems correlated with more corruption.
I a way, you could see oil as a curse. I bet some locals does, I would if I’d face the political, societal and environmental drawbacks without much benefits.
Not OP but converting the page to PDF in reading mode (with Firefox) then using Amazon's sendtokindle[0] feature yielded decent results. Now I just use an e-reader that can read PDFs natively.
Some things I was shocked to learn when I first learned these a couple decades ago (from a Guyanese girl I was seeing in the U.S.):
- Guayana and nearby places were British colonies.
- there's a vast Indian (i.e. descended from India) population in Guyana and nearby places brought over by the British as "indentured workers" (for some reason, Indians were never officially called "slaves" by the British) in sugarcane plantations. (Interesting to me because I'm from India).
- Guyana speaks English.
- Yes, there are countries in "Latin" America that speak English. There are also countries that mainly speak French.
- Guyanese are often considered "Hispanic" in the U.S. though they are "Anglo". In fact Guyanese and Belizeans are able to pick and choose what to indicate on forms regarding their ethnicity, as it suits them.
- My favorite Salsa dance teacher in the U.S. has the last name "Persaud" and looks "Latino". Took me about 15 years to realize he was of Indian stock (though might be mixed with Latino).
- if Guyana had lower crime, and a well-organized economy, I'd move there in a heartbeat. They speak English, have good weather, and have massive oil deposits.
One additional bit of context on the Indian indentured labour is that crossing the seas was considered a great taboo among Hindus, leading to a loss of your "caste" because you had lost contact with the holy land. So only the very desperate and destitute were willing to take this deal. Or the adventurous.
The British Cellular Jail on the Andaman Islands were considered double jeopardy because of this as well.
The article says “My major historical sources include a 1992 US Military-commissioned study of Guyana and Belize. No, I have no idea why they lumped those two countries together”
This seems to be the connection: only mainland countries south of USA primarily English speaking. (Of course both related to British colonialism)
> for some reason, Indians were never officially called "slaves" by the British
An indentured worker and a slave are not the same thing. While one would prefer to be neither of those things, generally the former voluntarily entered into the arrangement (or in lieu of prison), were bound for a fixed term, weren't considered property, and had at least some legal recourse. Were some indentured workers de-facto slaves? Almost certainly. That doesn't mean they were the same thing though.
> for some reason, Indians were never officially called "slaves" by the British
The same goes for chinese, japanese and filipino "slaves". In official capacity, they may not have been called slaves, but unofficially, they were. There are old portguese books that claimed japanese made the best slaves. And there was a british viceroy who claimed indians made the best slaves.
> Guyanese are often considered "Hispanic" in the U.S.
Maybe in official documents but certainly not in everyday life. Guyanese are considered and treated like indians or 'hindus' and they themselves view themselves as indians, not hispanic.
>for some reason, Indians were never officially called "slaves" by the British
I suppose it's because they weren't. It's sort of fashionable to compare hard conditions to slavery in many fields, but back in those times the difference would be obvious.
Indentured labour was done by contract for a fixed period, and they were paid. For people who believe that there was workers who got on the ships through their own agency this is important. This undoubtedly happened along with those who were compelled or deceived.
Frankly, I think the reason that it is not more often referred to as slavery is because it wasn’t officially referred to as such contemporaneously. But there is legitimate debate around the differences between Indian indentured servitude and slavery.
Thank you making note of this. The Guyanese I know have an oral history of being decieved and compelled. They were tricked into getting on board a boat and once there not allowed to leave. They were heart broken that their families did not know what happened to them. The return to India was offered later as reparation. But by then they had built entire lives and had new families of their own. The British did not call it slavery because slavery was outlawed by this time.
The author's heavy reliance on a historical narative authored by the U.S. military probably contributed to the rather sanitized recounting of the role Britain had in imigrating 286,000 Indians to Guyana.
I am curious to know if anyone else here shares this history in their family.
Latin Americans don't associate Guyana and Belize as Latin America, beyond the proximity. Latin Americans are associated with Spanish and Portuguese mainly (romance languages). Also, the colonization by Spain and Portugal. Guyana and Belize are associated specifically with the Caribbean area.
That's why the original says "Latin" in quotes, but geographically they're in Central/South America and, as this discussion has illustrated, that means "Latin" as far as most Americans are concerned.
Thanks for the link. I'm keeping it for future reference. My ideal weather is "slightly warm and slightly humid" all the time. Alas, I live in a place where we have 7 months of winter each year. One day....
"Latin America" is an US-American invention. It is all America. The US is just one of the American countries (and culture, which is very similar to the other American countries but rich).
Don't think "Latin America" is a US invention, the term "Latino" is, though. Latin America is just a term for the countries in America colonised by romance language countries. As the sibling comment says the exact definition varies, but wouldn't say it's a US invention.
What you say about the US just being one of the American countries is correct, and it's often a source of confusion (intended or not)
> Don't think "Latin America" is a US invention, the term "Latino" is, though
You are right. But also the term Latino "creates" Latin America, which are the countries Latinos come from. And then also a subculture of immigrants in the US, which funnily is a bit excluding of Brazilians as not real Latinos (as there is also a expectation that everybody below the US speaks Spanish).
> Iberoamérica is used too if you want to be more specific and exclude the French colonies
Oh yeah it's very funny when you start the "actually Quebec is part of Latin America, but the Guyanas aren't, except for French Guiana, which isn't actually a country, and about Louisiana...."
No, Latino is a US person of latinoamerican origin, it's something they invented. For example, I am latin american, but don't consider myself Latino since I'm from South America, but not from the US.
It's a bit of a complex issue since it's the US taking over a term or culture and normalising it as the only valid one.
This reminds me of another blog I enjoyed -- there's a link shortener called https://y.gy, and .gy is the Guayanese TLD. Venezuela was invading Guyana, so the y.gy owner wrote a whole essay about what it would mean for the .gy domain if Venezuela seizes their physical domain admin infrastructure. Crazy stuff. https://app.y.gy/blog/guyana-war
Could someone who is more English fluent clarify this statement?
> (including individuals of the male, female, black, Indian, white, Chinese, Christian, Hindu, Islamic, and Jewish persuasion)
What "persuasion" means in this context?
> ...Janet Rosenberg, who to my knowledge is the only Jewish female head-of-government (and later state) in history outside of Israel (and more recently, Mexico).
In older writing, one would have used the phrase literally, to describe someone's religious or political affiliation: beliefs one could have been "persuaded" to adopt. One might refer to a preacher "of the Methodist persuasion", say.
The modern usage of the idiom came about as a joke - as though someone's sex or ethnic heritage were merely a matter of preference. Over time, the original sense has been forgotten, and the humor has been lost through repetition, so it is now just an odd phrase.
The US TV show "All in the Family" in the early 70s included the character Archie Bunker, who was an outspoken bigot. This might have been the origin of using "the Oriental persuasion" as a joke. My parents thought it was hilarious, and explained the joke to me. Yes, since then, that usage has leaked from being humor to being used in the sense above.
I would have bet a lot of money that Guyana was a country somewhere in Africa. I'm so surprised to find out it is South America. The article was a good read.
> Mass Games in North Korea.. are without comparison the largest choreographed performance in the world.. There are three central components.. gymnastics, music, and the panoramic backdrop.. The backdrop is created through tens of thousands of children aligned in one side of the stadium seats holding books of illustrated cards positioned contiguously with each other to give the illusion of an imperforate surface; by changing the pages of the book in precisely coordinated unison following the signals of a conductor, the backdrop image is transformed throughout the performance.
> If you ask a random American about Guyana, they won’t know what it is. If they’ve heard of it, they will probably think it’s in Africa (happened to me 3X times), and if they know just a little bit more about it, they know it’s the home of Jonestown.
I’ve always heard intimations that Guyana was worse than French Guyana or Suriname as a tourist destination, but yeah this seems really surprisingly bad as a tourist destination…
Considering that the author is doing a blog series on visiting some of the more out-of-the-way places, I spent most of the piece wondering when he'd stop talking about the history and actually go on about the things he saw.
When that list amounts to "I booked it to the next country because I exhausted everything worth doing in a day", coming from someone who tries hard to do interesting stuff well off the beaten path... it really sounds like the only reason to go to that country is to check it off the list of the countries to visit. Yikes.
Lots of beautiful spots to see in the interior, Kaiteur is the highest single drop waterfall in the world. Baganara Island is a good vacation spot. Don't believe everything you read on the internet.
That is surprising - considering how close they are. I've always ended up flying out of New York or Toronto, at what I'd consider reasonable prices. I suspect it's because of the sizable expat/2nd/3rd gen population in the northeast.
Flights are scheduled based on demand, not proximity. There are many Caribbean islands that are so close you can see them from each other on a good day, but the fastest way to travel between them is via Miami.
Comparing Jagan and Burnham to (respectively) Trotsky and Stalin is extremely strange. Jagan was perceived as a threat to British interests in Guyana, Burnham was deemed acceptable if unreliable.
Britain sent warships and 700 troops to oust Jagan in 1953, suspending the constitution, and later worked (with the US) to ensure Jagan could not reach the top job again. To be clear, Jagan’s PPP had won 75% of the seats in a democratic election.
Interesting, what are the opportunities to make money from Guyana, it is understood that they have lots of oil and they have the fastest growing GDP of any country.
For some reason the current leader of Guyana (who has a muslim name) hangs out a lot with India's Modi (who is an open islamophobe). A strange set of bedfellows.
Theory is that 1) Guyana needs to wage war with Venezuela over oil-rich disputed territory [1], and 2) Guyana wants to build a lot of infrastructure. Might be opportunities there.
> Theory is that 1) Guyana needs to wage war with Venezuela over oil-rich disputed territory [1], and 2) Guyana wants to build a lot of infrastructure. Might be opportunities there
Ali studied in India so that probably played a significant role.
More critically, India's ONGC and Reliance have signifant stakes in Venezuela's ONG industry, and act as a mediator between Guyana and Venezuela.
Guyana is also trying to become a major ONG exporter now, and the biggest greenfield market for that is now India.
If you like travelogues, Wild Coast by John Gimlette is a great read.
And, Alex Rothman, youtuber, used Gimlette as a source for (well produced!) videos he made both about Sri Lanka and Guyana. E.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2mszCGt830
The Banks billboard brought back memories. My mom used to work in the computer department (or whatever they called their IT center) at Banks D.I.H. when I was a kid. I remember playing with used punch cards and having bags of confetti from the punched out chads.
The slavery discussion brought out a LOL because it was almost exactly what I was taught as a Guyanese schoolkid in the 70's. Especially the part about the Amerindians basically saying, "fuck this shit" and disappearing back into the jungle.
Having lived in the US for over 40 years, I have essentially no connection to the country of my birth any longer (technically I was born in British Guiana, but whatever), so it was interesting to see how it's changed from what I remember. Captions on the photos would have been nice though.
> Currently, Indians have the highest median income of any ethnic group in the United States. While there are cultural contributors to this trend, it’s probably mostly a result of an extremely powerful selection effect wherein only the very economically best and brightest out of the 1.4 billion people in India manage to immigrate to the US.
"economically best and brightest". That’s a google search that only shows this article.
Now consider the caste makeup. Two thumbs up from the author to the caste system I guess.
Being Guyanese in tech is an interesting experience. FWIW I have yet to meet another Guyanese person at work. In every workplace I go to the experience is similar - initially the south asian folks approach me, but then once they realize we're not that culturally similar I end up in a sort of limbo. Not to say that folks aren't welcoming, but every large company ends up having sort of cultural cliques, and I never seem to fit into any of them.
Curious if there are any other Guyanese folks out there who're willing to share their experience.
I am British born, with Trinidadian and Guyanese parents. I've had a very similar experience, not just in tech but throughout all areas of my life. I look Indian, but culturally it's very different.
Everyone always (perhaps South Asians more commonly) asks where I'm from. I say I'm British. They ask "no, really". I say Trinidadian and Guyanese heritage. They say "you look like you are from India, your family must be from India". It does get a bit tiresome.
The only time it actually _really_ annoys me is when I have to fill out forms with ethnicity. There is never Asian-Caribbean, but always Black-Caribbean, so I always feel that I am never being represented.
Out of curiosity, what kind of forms ask for your ethnicity? Maybe it's because I'm living in Europe, but I've never been asked for that in my entire life, and if I would, I would find it very strange ..
It's very common in the U.S. It's ostensibly done to gather evidence of discrimination. Most government forms require it, and large employers are required to report the racial/ethnic makeup of their staff to the government, along with gender, past military service, and persons with disabilities. California recently added a requirement for VCs to ask the founders they fund their sexual orientation.
People have written entire books on the politics behind how the government comes up with the sometimes-illogical categories into which folks are divided.
See e.g. https://reason.com/volokh/2023/03/25/my-comment-on-the-ombs-... for discussion on the "hispanic" designation.
In the US, governmental departments and large employers frequently ask for ethnicity on all sorts of forms to help the organization ensure that it is meeting its DEI goals.
I used to work with a carpenter from Trinidad. This was in the southern US, and at an employer where I was probably the only college educated person. I recall them as being very professional but able to socialize easily with everyone else, and they were also insanely good at chess.
I've had a near identical experience, every ethnicity form is makes me feel like I'm lying a little.
Despite externally-incited ethnic conflict, Guyana was a comparatively post-tribal melting pot of cultures and social classes. e.g. kids stack-ranked nationally into peer-group schools around age 10, based on standardized test. Outside Guyana:
It has become so exhausting doing this dialogue tree with Indian folks - particularly true for the older population. it's their opener for small talk...
Born Canadian with Jamaican and Guyanese parents. Identical experience.
I don’t fit in their boxes so generally I go with “prefer not to say”.
Indian here. I've never fit in any of the traditional Indian cliques. Such a blessing! At the end of the day, you're going to lose your individuality over the group or sub-group you're identifying with. And you're going to be pulled into their politics and drama. Read Naval's thoughts on the importance of solitude and dis-identification with any group, in order to be able to become the individual you are meant to be. And thank your stars that none of the traditional Indian cliques wants you.
Hah, appreciate the response. Being able to stay out the drama is nice - though I do find my self sometimes craving the support structures and sense of belonging that these cliques provide. Especially when at work all I hear around me is Mandarin or Hindi, in the hallways, at lunch, essentially in any context except full-on work meetings where it almost feels like they're _forced_ to speak English for me.
My 0.02 cents on this issue: it is terribly rude to speak Mandarin or Hindi, when in a mixed group setting at work, in the USA. Be happy you didn't become one of these rude people. Support structures... I get it. It does help to have a sort of extended-family sometimes. Here's what I've found helpful: get into an activity where such support structures organically form. And you can have the support structure without attendant ethno-centric drama and politics.
There are also downsides to being in these ethnocentric cliques. Know the crabs in a bucket effect, and the saying about how you can't become a prophet in your own town. There's a strong anchoring effect your own people have regarding you. When they see you rising up, they wonder why you're succeeding and they're not, and try to drag you down (instead of celebrating your rise). There's a strong hierarchy within these cliques, and you're not supposed to break-out of your "correct position" in the hierarchy.
Also, if it helps to know this: I have relatives who are thick in the middle of their Indian cliques. What do they do when they're not with their clique-members? Trash-talk about them.
I appreciate the response, and it does indeed help. Maybe I'm not missing out on much after all.
The activity is good advice. Some of my closest friends I've meet though hobbies I enjoyed - I'll just need to apply the same strategy, though it definitely feels tougher to do without having school as a crutch to force socializing.
Sounds like an excellent opportunity to learn mandarin.
i left my home country and generally stayed away from most expat groups primarily to get away from the people i was being identified with and pretty much avoid all the things you mention.
I haven't thought about this in a long time, but as we were leaving Guyana, I remember my paternal grandfather warning me to stay away from the Guyanese in America: "they will just try to pull you down to their level."
I've heard similar sentiments, but I've always felt like there's something pernicious about this attitude, similar to self-internalized racism. "Down to their level" == the same "disadvantaged" state of affairs that we come from.
What I said was basically the rollup. There was more detail to his comment that I didn't think necessary to elaborate on.
> Read Naval's thoughts on the importance of solitude and dis-identification with any group
Hard thing to search for.. can you provide a book title or something?
I’m not the OP, but perhaps https://www.navalmanack.com/
Well hello, fellow Guyanese in tech. My grandmother got the Cacique crown of honor (second highest civilian honor in the country) https://guyanachronicle.com/2017/02/05/outstanding-doctor-en...
I remember being lectured that I was latino since Guyana is in latin america and I had to explain that, nah.
Born Guyanese, but only lived there until I was 3, then we moved to St. Lucia. Have lots of memories from visiting over summers and Christmas multiple times when I was a kid.
Mostly consider myself Lucian and I feel like I've assimilated into the American tech population. My history now is just a interesting fun fact. Don't meet too many people from the Caribbean in general in tech circles, so it's always fun to get a reminder that they're out there.
As a die hard cricket fan I am pretty well aware of the talented Guyanese cricketers, most notably Shivnarine Chanderpaul. I think most of your Indian colleagues likely follow cricket so that could be a great way to start bonding with them. Of course, if you don't follow cricket then that's a useless advice!
Beyond this, I would suggest learning a little bit about the common topics we "Desi" people talk about at work. In the US most of us will talk about local issues way more than anything happening back in India. This is partly because India is quite siloed. So there is a good chance that people are talking about elections these days.
Btw language barriers play a huge role. I understand Spanish and Portuguese better than I understand many Indian languages. In many cases, I can't even figure out which language people are speaking. (As an aside, it is possible that some of your colleagues are not speaking Hindi but some other language altogether.) None of my Indian colleagues in my university speak my native language. Many of them don't speak Hindi. So we communicate only in English.
Well, TIL! I had always assumed that Hindi was a sort of lingua franca in India, taught in the schools alongside the regional language. Guess that is not so, then? (Is there a lingua franca in today's India at all, then? English?)
Yes, for the most part. Not sure what you mean by "today's India", since India has never had a lingua franca (except for English).
My dad's side of the family is indo-guyanese (and he was specifically in tech for his whole career). It's interesting, they've (and I, to a lesser extent) reported something similar, where every once in a great while people from India will recognize our last name and then slowly realize we don't have much in common culturally. Our food is "caribbean-indian" for instance (apparently Trinidad has something similar), it's kind of different than what you'd get from in a regular Indian restaurant.
The comment the author made about the caste system not coming to Guyana tracks too, my aunt has encountered people making quips about it at work every once in a blue moon.
I have met two other Guyanese people in the US outside of friends of my family. One of them was actually someone I was friends with in Guyana. Purely by coincidence we went to the same US high school and came across each other in a hallway. The other had moved here when he was about 2 years old.
Shouldn't be surprised. It's a country the size of England with the population of a large neighborhood in Brooklyn.
As an American of South Asian ancestry, I have always been intrigued by other South Asian diaspora communities like the ones in Guyana, Trinidad and South Africa. I wonder if the cultural evolution of those South Asian communities can be used to forecast how Indian American culture will evolve. One key difference of course is that immigration from India to the US is ongoing while it stopped in Guyana for the most part and may have led to more cultural evolution.
I had a Guyanese coworker at my last company. I initially thought she was Indian based on her name and looks. Her background made us have a lot to talk about and we were good friends.
Check out this tech podcast, https://securityconversations.com
Wow, this is the first tech podcast I've ever found with a guyanese host - also interestingly they appear to have a carribbean-focused cricket site that appears to be still maintained:
https://caribbeancricket.com/
Might be tiring if South Asians start referring to cricket as one of first points of conversation as well as many average Indians are still unaware of the broader history
You have to kind of push your way into circles if you want to make friends at work. Cliquishness is kind of natural, but it can be overcome with a little Type A extrovertedness
My wife is Guyanese, is that close enough?
> Exxon is the operator of the Stabroek Block, with 45% interest, Hess Guyana Exploration Ltd. holds 30% interest and China National Offshore Oil Corporation (CNOOC) Petroleum Guyana Limited holds 25% interest. Last year, the three companies earned $1.3 trillion in profits – entirely tax-free in Guyana.. the Stabroek Block partners are allowed to recover 75% of the oil produced to recover their investment costs, the remaining 25% is considered profit, which is split between Guyana and the Stabroek Block consortium, giving each 12.5%.
> However, the consortium pays a 2% royalty from its share to Guyana. From its 14.5% Guyana then has to pay taxes for the oil companies... for 2023, the Government of Guyana (GoG) had to pay the combined sum of $306 billion in income taxes for ExxonMobil Guyana Limited and its Stabroek Block partners, Hess and CNOOC according to the companies’ audited financial statements, while for the same period Guyana earned $336 billion from its oil.
For those wondering, these figures are quoted in the Guyanese dollar, not the U.S. dollar.
1 Guyanese dollar equals 0.0048 USD.
Unsustainable. Things will probably change after enough Guyanese find out.
Change how?
Like they changed in Venezuela?
Venezuela nationalized oil production in 71, it collapsed 50% within a few years, briefly rebounded, and is currently down almost 90%.
That didn't work out for Venezuela.
Well they're no longer beholden to american corporations. That's a massive win; the market will 100% swing back in their favor eventually.
You consider it a "massive win" going from - per capita - the 4th richest country in the world [1] to one so poor you have an ~82% food insecurity rate and ~53% in extreme poverty [2]?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Venezuela
[2] https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/venezuela-un...
That would be worse than Qatar turning into Venezuela. Venezuela was richer than Qatar - by quite a bit.
I think people fail to grasp how good things were in Venezuela before 71.
Guyana is considered part of the Caribbean because they speak 100% English…well creole English (broken English) to be precise.
Just like American Indians, the natives there are called Amerindian.
There’s also a huge Dutch history…dating back to the 1600 if I remember correctly.
WOW! It’s amazing to see Guyana mentioned on HN.
If you rally want to know Guyanese, get invited to one of our parties. Fun and down-to-earth folks…well most, some can definitely carry a massive ego seed.
If you haven’t met anyone in tech - greetings! A pleasure to meet you. 20 years building successful companies and products in the USA.
Wakenaam - Dutch - “Waiting for a name”.
> creole English (broken English)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guyanese_Creole
Side note: creoles are accepted as version of French/English etc. that evolved on a different timeline while getting heavy influences from the local languages. For a while it was common to call them "broken" or "bastardized" [0], in language circles that's pretty much a thing of the past I'd say. Same way we don't call French broken Latin.
[0] https://guyanachronicle.com/2013/10/13/the-rich-cultural-exp...
The map of Guyana at the top of this article listed a location called Kamuda Village, and I thought that sounded interesting, so I checked it out on Google Search and Google Maps.
There's basically nothing about it on the English Internet. A point exists on Google Maps and some auto-generated SEO spam pages exist probably for that reason. There are no photos of the location, the terrain view just shows trees. No roads nearby. It's a few hundred meters from the marginally better documented Kukui River. The Internet has a video of some kids at another part of this river who take a raft across it every day to get to school.
It looks like there are lots of places in Guyana like this. Inhabited but undocumented, at least on the public Internet. It's fascinating to me that in an era where you just assume everything is online, there's so much of the world that still isn't.
> There’s also a huge Dutch history
I thought Suriname was the Dutch Guyana
Currently. Guyana was also owned by the Dutch a few hundred years ago.
Good read, sent it to my Kindle. It was the CIA who messed up that country in the modern era. Glad they found oil and now have insane GDP growth. Hope they don't ruin the Amazon rainforest nearby. Hope the racial tensions ease down and infrastructure is built up, so I can visit one day.
> Glad they found oil and now have insane GDP growth.
Guyana has weak political institutions and high corruption & tribalism. It’s more likely to become a poor resource-cursed nation than a successful one.
I truly hope this isn’t the case, but if history teaches us a lesson..
What country on earth is strong on protection from corruption and tribalism? Point out the country and I'll point out the nature of the above.
No country is 100% immune to it. But some countries have developed systems to tame the effects as much as possible.
Examples are most of Western Europe, the U.S., and Canada. There’s a clear correlation between low corruption and high economic development.
I can't speak to western europe, but the clear devotion the US and Canada have to capital makes this difficult to buy as a general difference. I suspect the distinction in corruption between the west and the rest of the world must come from a working person's perspective.
And I would love to hear from any non-westerners here as I suspect it's impossible to get a meaningful evaluation from the west.
I’m a non-Westerner (Nigerian in particular). Corruption in developing/underdeveloped countries is extremely worse than in developed countries.
My country is a fitting example. Most citizens (of all classes) don’t pay taxes, people pay petty bribes to violate laws, government officers request for bribes to carry out mundane activities like getting a driver’s license or passport, and citizens are happy to oblige.
Everyone wants to bypass the law and feel smart, not realizing that it makes the whole system terrible and everyone poorer in the long run (people generally don’t want to make long-term capital investments in corrupt countries, so that’s why most of Africa struggles to get foreign investment).
This kind of petty corruption is hard to explain to a Westerner who hasn’t experienced it. And it’s no surprise that corruption is keeping African nations (and many nations from other continents) behind.
I appreciate your comment. I presume you prefer the west (at least in terms of political and economic stability) to your home country from your comment. Do you have any concerns about how capital openly purchases the interests of politicians in the us? I guess I had written off the difference in citizen comfort to the mountains of cash americans roll around on.
> Do you have any concerns about how capital openly purchases the interests of politicians in the us?
The U.S. and the West at large aren’t perfect, but it fairs much better than most of the world in preventing corruption.
Capital also purchases influence in developing/underdeveloped countries, but in a much worse way. It’s often very cheap because desperate locals are willing to sell out their country for any meager amount.
Here’s a fitting example: Benny Steinmetz (a mining tycoon) paid $8.5 million in bribes to the spouse of Guinea’s former President to obtain exploration permits for a mine [1].
Steinmetz sold 51% of the mine shortly after for $2.5 billion [2]. In other words, he extracted 300x the bribe, and the Guinean official never bothered to think her country was being robbed in broad daylight by the bribe she received.
Many similar cases occur in Africa, wherein foreign companies pay cheap bribes to rob countries of their resources.
The African leaders (and populace) are often willing to part with their resources for cash rather than harnessing it for internal development (this part is difficult, unlike the easy way of collecting cash and spending it foolishly).
Add in endless petty corruption, and the result is the mediocrity of many countries that we see.
1- https://www.reuters.com/business/swiss-court-upholds-corrupt...
2 - https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-1000556396#!
Count up the number of bribes you have had to pay as a normal working person in the west.
Places with big corruption problems have people demanding bribes at every turn.
Canada is fantastically corrupt, just not at the ground-level
That's what I'm saying—corruption looks different in different places but society still bends towards the cash
You right corruption happen in 100% countries at a level or another.
GP says that looking at history, oil in a country soil seems correlated with more corruption.
I a way, you could see oil as a curse. I bet some locals does, I would if I’d face the political, societal and environmental drawbacks without much benefits.
The glib answer would be Singapore.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse
It’s unfortunately not that simple for poor countries to benefit from resources
What method do you use to send articles like this to your kindle?
Not OP but converting the page to PDF in reading mode (with Firefox) then using Amazon's sendtokindle[0] feature yielded decent results. Now I just use an e-reader that can read PDFs natively.
0: https://www.amazon.com/gp/sendtokindle/
Some things I was shocked to learn when I first learned these a couple decades ago (from a Guyanese girl I was seeing in the U.S.):
- Guayana and nearby places were British colonies.
- there's a vast Indian (i.e. descended from India) population in Guyana and nearby places brought over by the British as "indentured workers" (for some reason, Indians were never officially called "slaves" by the British) in sugarcane plantations. (Interesting to me because I'm from India).
- Guyana speaks English.
- Yes, there are countries in "Latin" America that speak English. There are also countries that mainly speak French.
- Guyanese are often considered "Hispanic" in the U.S. though they are "Anglo". In fact Guyanese and Belizeans are able to pick and choose what to indicate on forms regarding their ethnicity, as it suits them.
- My favorite Salsa dance teacher in the U.S. has the last name "Persaud" and looks "Latino". Took me about 15 years to realize he was of Indian stock (though might be mixed with Latino).
- if Guyana had lower crime, and a well-organized economy, I'd move there in a heartbeat. They speak English, have good weather, and have massive oil deposits.
One additional bit of context on the Indian indentured labour is that crossing the seas was considered a great taboo among Hindus, leading to a loss of your "caste" because you had lost contact with the holy land. So only the very desperate and destitute were willing to take this deal. Or the adventurous.
The British Cellular Jail on the Andaman Islands were considered double jeopardy because of this as well.
Does this apply today to construction workers in the Middle East, whose families remain in SE Asia?
That taboo is long since gone (I'm assuming you're talking about South Asia, though).
> Guyana speaks English.
The article says “My major historical sources include a 1992 US Military-commissioned study of Guyana and Belize. No, I have no idea why they lumped those two countries together”
This seems to be the connection: only mainland countries south of USA primarily English speaking. (Of course both related to British colonialism)
> for some reason, Indians were never officially called "slaves" by the British
An indentured worker and a slave are not the same thing. While one would prefer to be neither of those things, generally the former voluntarily entered into the arrangement (or in lieu of prison), were bound for a fixed term, weren't considered property, and had at least some legal recourse. Were some indentured workers de-facto slaves? Almost certainly. That doesn't mean they were the same thing though.
Its neighbor, French Guyana is French territory. Thanks to that, Brazil is the country with the largest border to France.
Equatorial launch site for French space program.
Technically, Guyana's neighbor is Suriname to the East, not French Guiana - there isn't a shared border.
sure, I always mix the positioning of the orignal Guyanas (Suriname as called Dutch Guyana)
Pushed my favourite geography trick question of "what is the tallest mountain in Europe" to second place.
> In fact Guyanese and Belizeans are able to pick and choose what to indicate on forms regarding their ethnicity, as it suits them.
I thought everyone could do this
> for some reason, Indians were never officially called "slaves" by the British
The same goes for chinese, japanese and filipino "slaves". In official capacity, they may not have been called slaves, but unofficially, they were. There are old portguese books that claimed japanese made the best slaves. And there was a british viceroy who claimed indians made the best slaves.
> Guyanese are often considered "Hispanic" in the U.S.
Maybe in official documents but certainly not in everyday life. Guyanese are considered and treated like indians or 'hindus' and they themselves view themselves as indians, not hispanic.
>for some reason, Indians were never officially called "slaves" by the British
I suppose it's because they weren't. It's sort of fashionable to compare hard conditions to slavery in many fields, but back in those times the difference would be obvious.
Indentured labour was done by contract for a fixed period, and they were paid. For people who believe that there was workers who got on the ships through their own agency this is important. This undoubtedly happened along with those who were compelled or deceived.
Frankly, I think the reason that it is not more often referred to as slavery is because it wasn’t officially referred to as such contemporaneously. But there is legitimate debate around the differences between Indian indentured servitude and slavery.
Thank you making note of this. The Guyanese I know have an oral history of being decieved and compelled. They were tricked into getting on board a boat and once there not allowed to leave. They were heart broken that their families did not know what happened to them. The return to India was offered later as reparation. But by then they had built entire lives and had new families of their own. The British did not call it slavery because slavery was outlawed by this time.
The author's heavy reliance on a historical narative authored by the U.S. military probably contributed to the rather sanitized recounting of the role Britain had in imigrating 286,000 Indians to Guyana.
I am curious to know if anyone else here shares this history in their family.
To add to this, Indians could choose to return back home to India after their contract was over. Of course lots decided to stay, but some did return.
> - Yes, there are countries in "Latin" America that speak English.
Which one?
Guyana and Belize.
Latin Americans don't associate Guyana and Belize as Latin America, beyond the proximity. Latin Americans are associated with Spanish and Portuguese mainly (romance languages). Also, the colonization by Spain and Portugal. Guyana and Belize are associated specifically with the Caribbean area.
That's why the original says "Latin" in quotes, but geographically they're in Central/South America and, as this discussion has illustrated, that means "Latin" as far as most Americans are concerned.
Caribbean countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean
When you say good weather, where would you place Guyana in this map? https://xkcd.com/1916/
Thanks for the link. I'm keeping it for future reference. My ideal weather is "slightly warm and slightly humid" all the time. Alas, I live in a place where we have 7 months of winter each year. One day....
> - Yes, there are countries in "Latin" America that speak English. There are also countries that mainly speak French.
"Latin America" has multiple definitions. Most of those definitions do exclude English-speaking Belize and Guyana (and Dutch-speaking Suriname).
"Latin America" is an US-American invention. It is all America. The US is just one of the American countries (and culture, which is very similar to the other American countries but rich).
Don't think "Latin America" is a US invention, the term "Latino" is, though. Latin America is just a term for the countries in America colonised by romance language countries. As the sibling comment says the exact definition varies, but wouldn't say it's a US invention.
What you say about the US just being one of the American countries is correct, and it's often a source of confusion (intended or not)
> Don't think "Latin America" is a US invention, the term "Latino" is, though
You are right. But also the term Latino "creates" Latin America, which are the countries Latinos come from. And then also a subculture of immigrants in the US, which funnily is a bit excluding of Brazilians as not real Latinos (as there is also a expectation that everybody below the US speaks Spanish).
> You are right.
You should have stopped right there.
Latino is a US term to refer to people in the US by their origin.
Outside of the US people use Latinoamérica to refer to the central and South American former colonies of France, Portugal and Spain.
Iberoamérica is used too if you want to be more specific and exclude the French colonies
> Iberoamérica is used too if you want to be more specific and exclude the French colonies
Oh yeah it's very funny when you start the "actually Quebec is part of Latin America, but the Guyanas aren't, except for French Guiana, which isn't actually a country, and about Louisiana...."
That is why we get back to "Latin America" doesn't exist :) It is all America, for the grievance of US Americans.
No, Latino is a US person of latinoamerican origin, it's something they invented. For example, I am latin american, but don't consider myself Latino since I'm from South America, but not from the US.
It's a bit of a complex issue since it's the US taking over a term or culture and normalising it as the only valid one.
Ah yes, Dutch too!
Imagine explaining this to middle-America.
This reminds me of another blog I enjoyed -- there's a link shortener called https://y.gy, and .gy is the Guayanese TLD. Venezuela was invading Guyana, so the y.gy owner wrote a whole essay about what it would mean for the .gy domain if Venezuela seizes their physical domain admin infrastructure. Crazy stuff. https://app.y.gy/blog/guyana-war
> Venezuela was invading Guyana
Venezuela was threatening to invade Guyana*
What an unexpectedly spellbinding historical read.
> What an unexpectedly spellbinding historical read.
Spellbinding ? More like propaganda. Historical ? "When the first spanish settler".
One can tell the nationality of the author from those.
Could someone who is more English fluent clarify this statement?
> (including individuals of the male, female, black, Indian, white, Chinese, Christian, Hindu, Islamic, and Jewish persuasion)
What "persuasion" means in this context?
> ...Janet Rosenberg, who to my knowledge is the only Jewish female head-of-government (and later state) in history outside of Israel (and more recently, Mexico).
There is one more, see: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_Dreifuss>.
In this context, "persuasion" is an idiom just means something like "background" "has this attribute".
It doesn't have anything to do with the typical meaning of "persuade" because English is weird.
In older writing, one would have used the phrase literally, to describe someone's religious or political affiliation: beliefs one could have been "persuaded" to adopt. One might refer to a preacher "of the Methodist persuasion", say.
The modern usage of the idiom came about as a joke - as though someone's sex or ethnic heritage were merely a matter of preference. Over time, the original sense has been forgotten, and the humor has been lost through repetition, so it is now just an odd phrase.
The US TV show "All in the Family" in the early 70s included the character Archie Bunker, who was an outspoken bigot. This might have been the origin of using "the Oriental persuasion" as a joke. My parents thought it was hilarious, and explained the joke to me. Yes, since then, that usage has leaked from being humor to being used in the sense above.
> What "persuasion" means in this context?
"Of the ... persuasion" is a slightly fancy way of saying "who are ..."
I would have bet a lot of money that Guyana was a country somewhere in Africa. I'm so surprised to find out it is South America. The article was a good read.
Guyana: South America
French Guiana: South America
Guinea: Africa
Guinea-Bissau: Africa
Equatorial Guinea: Africa
Papua New Guinea: Asia
Bonus fun fact: the guinea pig is from Peru and has no known connection to any of these.
Wait there's more : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goi%C3%A2nia
More spelling fun, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Guiana
At one time, partnered with North Korea!
https://apjjf.org/2015/13/4/Moe-Taylor/4258
> Mass Games in North Korea.. are without comparison the largest choreographed performance in the world.. There are three central components.. gymnastics, music, and the panoramic backdrop.. The backdrop is created through tens of thousands of children aligned in one side of the stadium seats holding books of illustrated cards positioned contiguously with each other to give the illusion of an imperforate surface; by changing the pages of the book in precisely coordinated unison following the signals of a conductor, the backdrop image is transformed throughout the performance.
Guinea, Guyana, and Ghana… are hard to keep straight. 2/3 in Africa. Add French, New, and Papua combos and no wonder.
Just like Andorra - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3q_iqrvnC_4
> If you ask a random American about Guyana, they won’t know what it is. If they’ve heard of it, they will probably think it’s in Africa (happened to me 3X times), and if they know just a little bit more about it, they know it’s the home of Jonestown.
My Minnesota-born brother in law: "You're from Africa, right?"
"No, Guyana, not Ghana."
"Pardon my ignorance, but where is that exactly?" :-)
I’ve always heard intimations that Guyana was worse than French Guyana or Suriname as a tourist destination, but yeah this seems really surprisingly bad as a tourist destination…
Considering that the author is doing a blog series on visiting some of the more out-of-the-way places, I spent most of the piece wondering when he'd stop talking about the history and actually go on about the things he saw.
When that list amounts to "I booked it to the next country because I exhausted everything worth doing in a day", coming from someone who tries hard to do interesting stuff well off the beaten path... it really sounds like the only reason to go to that country is to check it off the list of the countries to visit. Yikes.
You can’t expect much from a country which consists of a small populated coastal strip and the rest (the interior) being the Amazon.
Or at least that’s the kind of destination where you have to make more plans before travelling than asking the natives what to do once you’ve arrived.
Lots of beautiful spots to see in the interior, Kaiteur is the highest single drop waterfall in the world. Baganara Island is a good vacation spot. Don't believe everything you read on the internet.
I follow a few popular travellers on YouTube and they had almost identical experiences.
Here's hoping their new oil wealth will improve their infrastructure and reduce crime.
1989, poorest country in the Western Hemisphere, https://www.stabroeknews.com/2016/12/02/features/30-years-of...
I wonder, what relatively affordable flights you can get to Guyana? For example, I cannot find flights from São Paulo or Rio de Janeiro.
That is surprising - considering how close they are. I've always ended up flying out of New York or Toronto, at what I'd consider reasonable prices. I suspect it's because of the sizable expat/2nd/3rd gen population in the northeast.
Flights are scheduled based on demand, not proximity. There are many Caribbean islands that are so close you can see them from each other on a good day, but the fastest way to travel between them is via Miami.
Comparing Jagan and Burnham to (respectively) Trotsky and Stalin is extremely strange. Jagan was perceived as a threat to British interests in Guyana, Burnham was deemed acceptable if unreliable.
Britain sent warships and 700 troops to oust Jagan in 1953, suspending the constitution, and later worked (with the US) to ensure Jagan could not reach the top job again. To be clear, Jagan’s PPP had won 75% of the seats in a democratic election.
An AP report on declassified MI5 documents about the 1953 coup: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/aug/26/mi5-files-coup...
A good summary of the post-'53 machinations by historian Mark Curtis: https://www.declassifieduk.org/the-sooner-we-get-these-peopl...
> GDP growth rate (2022) – 63.4% (not a typo)
Wow
Struck black gold, complete with neighbour envy
They found tons of oil
Interesting, what are the opportunities to make money from Guyana, it is understood that they have lots of oil and they have the fastest growing GDP of any country.
Any ideas?
Exxon & Chevron.
https://www.guyanastandard.com/2023/10/23/guyana-to-see-new-...
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/hess-guyanas-secret-...
For some reason the current leader of Guyana (who has a muslim name) hangs out a lot with India's Modi (who is an open islamophobe). A strange set of bedfellows.
Theory is that 1) Guyana needs to wage war with Venezuela over oil-rich disputed territory [1], and 2) Guyana wants to build a lot of infrastructure. Might be opportunities there.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guyana%E2%80%93Venezuela_terri...
> India's Modi (who is an open islamophobe
Someone should tell the Emiratis and Saudis. They keep hanging out with him and signing deals.
> Theory is that 1) Guyana needs to wage war with Venezuela over oil-rich disputed territory [1], and 2) Guyana wants to build a lot of infrastructure. Might be opportunities there
Ali studied in India so that probably played a significant role.
More critically, India's ONGC and Reliance have signifant stakes in Venezuela's ONG industry, and act as a mediator between Guyana and Venezuela.
Guyana is also trying to become a major ONG exporter now, and the biggest greenfield market for that is now India.
How did Ghana get pulled into this?
Oops, typos. Corrected. Thanks.
Real estate.
I know people in Guyana doing real estate who may have opportunities. Email in my profile if you are interested.
From an economic perspective and Guyana’s new found wealth, it’s important to understand https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse
If you like travelogues, Wild Coast by John Gimlette is a great read.
And, Alex Rothman, youtuber, used Gimlette as a source for (well produced!) videos he made both about Sri Lanka and Guyana. E.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2mszCGt830
Interesting. A few comments.
The Banks billboard brought back memories. My mom used to work in the computer department (or whatever they called their IT center) at Banks D.I.H. when I was a kid. I remember playing with used punch cards and having bags of confetti from the punched out chads.
The slavery discussion brought out a LOL because it was almost exactly what I was taught as a Guyanese schoolkid in the 70's. Especially the part about the Amerindians basically saying, "fuck this shit" and disappearing back into the jungle.
Having lived in the US for over 40 years, I have essentially no connection to the country of my birth any longer (technically I was born in British Guiana, but whatever), so it was interesting to see how it's changed from what I remember. Captions on the photos would have been nice though.
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> Currently, Indians have the highest median income of any ethnic group in the United States. While there are cultural contributors to this trend, it’s probably mostly a result of an extremely powerful selection effect wherein only the very economically best and brightest out of the 1.4 billion people in India manage to immigrate to the US.
"economically best and brightest". That’s a google search that only shows this article.
Now consider the caste makeup. Two thumbs up from the author to the caste system I guess.