This is encouraging. We need more of these EV retro-fit kits in developing countries, where buying EVs is prohibitively expensive. Obviously, we need a way of safety certifying the kits and the end product as well.
Uruguay is among the most developed countries [1] in South America (2024 nominal GDP per capita: ~$23K; Chile ~$16.5K) with human development index of 0.83 (very high).
Yet, the list price of new vehicles is easily 1.5x - 2x that in the US, and EVs are quite out of reach for most residents. (ex: Honda Civic HEV is listed for USD 55K [2])
By offering modestly priced EV retrofit kits, a market need is clearly being met.
This is useful only in some cases when it's better to keep some of the old stuff. It doesn't make sense to convert a post-2000 car: it would be very inefficient regarding the space use (too much stuff already in, no place for large enough battery, ...), the electricity consumption (those cars have a lot of electronics/ACs not optimised for batteries), and price wise (most of those cars don't cost much today).
It would be much more efficient to create cheap/light EVs: today's focus is mostly on expensive/large EVs with a huge lot of accessories/screens/... because that's where the money is for regular car brands. But if one make could build something like a Willys Jeep EV, or a least something like an early-90s small car that didn't have all of todays gadgets (Renault Twingo, Mini, Volkswagen Coccinelle, ...), they would be much more useful for those markets.
Another problem is still electricity grid: in a lot of countries, it's not up-to a large scale EV deployment.
Agree but with the logic that "all types" need to be made.
There is a very good market for a car for city dwellers, especially as a second car for them. Many families have two cars (get over it, that's reality), but I often see them buy that second car as an EV, keeping a gas guzzler to assuage range fears.
This is an excellent opportunity for that small, 100km range, low tech as you say car. Just batteries, motor. Just for local jaunts. Perfect.
I could do a commuter car with even a 50 km range, if it was cheap enough. But since I need a heater and air conditioner, and modern safety regulations are what they are, there’s very little chance that it can be made cheaply enough.
And here comes the transparent children of EVs: Mitsubishi i-MiEV and Nissan LEAF.
This phenomenon is not so surprising considering that the sole point of existence of Tesla was basically to give the middle finger to those and the Prius, but they exactly fit the criteria of mass market EVs precisely by the letters.
Especially the i-MiEV(pronounced eye-meeve). It was a Kei car!
I can only say that I'd be a customer for this. I'd much rather electrify my old car than throw it away to buy a brand new car with a ton of features (and anti-features [1]) that I don't want.
If somebody sold a cheap, mostly-analog electric car I'd probably buy it. But they probably never will in the US.
Hard disagree. It does not make sense in most nations with higher skilled labor wages. It makes no financial sense especially considering you would be spending a hefty premium on top of the vehicle itself. Better for that ICE to live its useful life as it is.
This is flagrant with the EU raising import tariffs on Chinese EV.
There is a lot of communication about the climate transition and how electric stuff is needed to save the world, but when cheap options are available from China it's a big no no because it goes against European manufacturers interests.
Exactly. This whole scheme won't work in EU because it's against car manufacturer's interest. The whole of eastern Europe is flooded by second hand German cars and the reason is twofold. First, the western Europe still can afford to change cars every few years, and secondly, the purchase power IMO of the eastern Europe is falling behind so second hand cars look more affordable then buying a new one.
If I were to install an electric motor in my car there is no chance I'm hell that I would be able to make it road legal. Last year I bought homologated Philips LED bulbs for my car to replace crappy incandescent bulbs and the car failed the inspection. "You can't have LED bulbs on a car manufactured with incandescents". Doesn't matter that the beam is completely correct and doesn't blind other drivers, and they have instruments to check it. "It the law, go away".
To be clear, it's both the manufacturer's interests and the interests of European workers. As long as we demand from every person that they earn a living, them using their political power to protect their national industry should be expected. Yes, cheap Chinese EV's are better for the environment, but that's small comfort to all the people employed by European car companies that are getting out-competed who hit the streets as a result.
If we want to start actually tackling climate change we need to unwind this notion that everyone must earn a living because there are simply vast swathes of the economy that are just redundant and do not need to exist.
"If we want to start actually tackling climate change we need to unwind this notion that everyone must earn a living because there are simply vast swathes of the economy that are just redundant and do not need to exist"
Or we start tackling some inbalancies.
Why is it so much cheaper to build in china?
(Mainly less regulations and cheaper labour I think)
But if we would be serious about climate change, we would need Chinas and Europes productive capabilities.
The given reason that the EU officials provided when they created the tariffs are major subsidizes from the Chinese government.
Of course, I have yet to see a nation with car manufacturing that do not subsidize that industry. Tax breaks, zero interest loans, help with construction/land, and so on. It also suspected/confirmed? that intelligence agencies also helps by providing industry espionage. With them being that involved it seems that tariffs are less about market forces and more about pure politics.
It's the same as mobile phones. Most phones have unreplacible batteries, because it's commercially better for their bottom line.
It's not like phones improve sufficiently to justify buying a new one, but the battery lose charge significantly over time.
A car has similar issues. There are only small parts of the car that wears out, and by replacing those parts, the car can be made to function for significantly longer. But modern cars are so complex and intertwined, that it's difficult to just replace worn parts (not to mention difficult to even find those parts available).
Hopefully the conversion to EV cars will resolve some of these problems, but i dont have high hopes. It's not like EV manufacturers are going out of their way to make the car's batteries replacible.
> It's not like phones improve sufficiently to justify buying a new one, but the battery lose charge significantly over time.
A five year old car engine is basically indistinguishable from a brand new car engine; a five year old cellphone chipset is going to have half of the performance and a quarter of the performance per watt as a brand new cellphone.
"It's not like EV manufacturers are going out of their way to make the car's batteries replacible"
But since electric cars are mechanically a bit simpler, there are opportunities for small companies willing to disrupt the market or at least find a niche for reliable and easy to fix cars.
i doubt it, because the whole platform is controlled by the EV manufacturer, and they can easily prevent it (via software for example). Think inkjet printers.
If EV batteries are to be made replacible, it needs to be mandated by law. And to be honest, i think a car's battery should be replacible (and be easy/convenient to do so) - imagine instead of charging your car, you will drive up to a "gas" station and just replace the current flat batteries with full ones in a few minutes. Think gas stove tanks.
I wonder how these conversion kits affect safety. These cars are crash-tested at a specific weight distribution. Adding lots of batteries make the car behave different besides being a fire hazard. I would expect that converted cars need to be inspected thoroughly before being allowed on the road.
I doubt this is economically feasible in high-wage countries (like Germany). Yes, EVs are expensive, but having a car completely transformed (plus certifcations and the cost of the transformation kit itself) will be even more expensive.
There are a few companies doing it in EU but most of them are focusing on premium classic cars.
For some of those, especially sports car, it can look as a sacrilege but I would have no issue converting say, a Bentley, Rolls Royce or Jaguar/Daimler coach to electric. These used to be built to transport rich people in total comfort, you don't need a smelly, noisy engine on them anyway.
Exactly what I mean - car freaks (if they are not "combustion engine freaks") with enough disposable income surely love this. But it's not a feasible way to transform the individual transport sector to a greener footprint.
The issue for the cars owners is that it become harder to sell the car later, exactly because of this transformation. So you basically transform it and drive until it dies (which is not bad from my POV), but that is something that make people think twice before doing it.
Genius. Incentivize economic production in industries where you have less comparative advantage. A common story of contribution to poverty in SA, although to be fair Uruguay is better than most others on the continent.
How do you build that comparative advantage though? You think Japan or South Korea didn't have protectionist policies until they figured out how to produce such things competitively?
Precisely. The theory of comparative advantage literally says "you can't finance e.g. industrialization by the market means, it's strictly and highly unprofitable, no entrepreneur in their right mind would (or even could) do this", yet somehow people routinely tout it as a decisive argument for laissez-faire.
And Japan's history of the state support for its automotive industry is quite something.
I'm Uruguayan and this drives me crazy. Specially for products that are also tools for industries where we can and do compete. Buying a computer in Uruguay costs about twice as much as in the US.
If this is all self imposed by tariffs, which as far as I know it is, what industry are the tariffs really defending? Certainly not Uruguayan electronics manufacturers, there aren't any. The only people that I imagine benefit are customs officers and companies that import stuff to sell in Uruguay. There isn't any new capability to build things that the country gets in return. We learn from exporting talent instead.
And if we want to compete we need to do it globally. Our market is too small, the population is ~3M.
Fair point, I might be mistaken. But I think there are lots of small resellers that wouldn't exist if buying online from abroad was as seamless and risk free as buying online locally through mercado libre. The real problem is the requirement of contacting a customs officer to import anything above 200usd, and the risk of having the product stopped by customs. The resellers value is in saving you that bureaucracy by doing it in bulk. And in practice, because of the small market, it greatly reduces the variety of products on offer.
This got to be negligible next to corruption and the cost of being small countries (more prone to market failures, small import/export traffic, brain drain).
Most cars can't dream of being anywhere near as efficient as a Prius. But yes if you can get your gasoline spending under $1000/year then you can probably match or beat electric. Throwing US averages at a calculator says an equivalently priced Leaf would have $200 less in fuel costs per year compared to the Prius getting 57 mpg. At that point it's up to the random maintenance costs.
Is there a reason not more popular to create hybrids that have no traditional powertrain? IT seems like it would be cost effective.
i.e. the petrol engine effectively just runs a generator to the batteries. You don't need prop shafts/gearboxes/transfer case/axles/alternator/starter etc.
If you can integrate the motor assembly into the wheel hub you don't need any kind of axle at all.
If/when the batteries degrade and lose capacity, you can just rely on the engine more.
The engine won't ever have to 'work' too hard, because when you accelerate hard the energy dump can just come from the battery reserve. Like it could just idle along at a more-or-less fixed rpm.
> i.e. the petrol engine effectively just runs a generator to the batteries. You don't need prop shafts/gearboxes/transfer case/axles/alternator/starter etc.
But you can't take advantage of that without handling every specific make of car. You need to design a specific solution for each engine.
> If you can integrate the motor assembly into the wheel hub you don't need any kind of axle at all.
This has a lot of downsides; the unsprung weight is very high which makes the ride much harsher. It's also very hard on the motors because of the shaking. There's only a few inches of space to claim in a normal wheel well by replacing and widening the tire. If you replace the suspension knuckle you have to make it work for all different makes.
All that said, I do think there's an underserved opportunity for a drop-in solution that just replaces the engine. Basically the same thing you're proposing, but why keep the old engine?
Replace it, and you can make a series-parallel hybrid, which is the ideal type. It's an engine connected by a clutch and single reducer to the driveshaft, with a motor connected to the engine (or by gears). At low throttle the motor acts like a generator, using the opportunity to increase engine load, charge the battery, and run the engine in a more efficient torque. At high throttle the motor joins the engine, increasing power. At cruise, the motor freewheels. For short trips the engine disconnects and the car runs on battery. You don't need an additional generator, the engine gets an efficient shaft connection, and it can still run battery-only. Best of all worlds and IMO worth trashing the engine.
If you drop in a full unit with batteries etc you might need a few configurations for different engine bays, but you can just have a variety of mounting points for different makes. Plug into the radiator for cooling. Give a serpentine belt wheel for accessories, or just have an AC onboard and use a spool valve to split some off to col the batteries better.
The issue with an EREV conversion is going to be weight, practicality, and thermal management of the battery.
Weight: You're adding about 500 lbs to the car to do this with ~20 miles of ev range. Suspension may need to be altered to support this.
Practicality: the batteries have to go somewhere and they can't go under the hood since the engine is still there, so they may go in the bottom of the trunk. From the examples I've seen there's usually less cargo capacity, and the spare tire is removed. Some vehicles that are already hybrids (e.g. Toyota sienna 2022-) have an already tight layout with exhaust and all that it becomes a design challenge to fit a larger battery.
Thermals: a li-ion battery for an EREV likely needs thermal management so it doesn't lose range prematurely, so you either need a dedicated cooling line setup that works with the ac compressor (bmw i3) or an aircooled setup where the battery is in the trunk and relies on cabin ac/heat (various toyota hybrid models do this).
> Weight: You're adding about 500 lbs to the car to do this with ~20 miles of ev range.
No. The drive unit of a Tesla + 4 battery modules weighs 500 lbs. That's 21 kWh, 80 miles of range and 500 horsepower. And 300 lbs of that is in the drive unit; more common conversion kits weigh ~150 lbs. You could use 500 lbs of regular lead car batteries and still get way more than 20 miles.
My points of comparison are simpler - compare a 2019-2023 Subaru Crosstrek (regular non-hybrid model, curb weight of 3117-3298 lbs ) to a 2019-2023 Subaru Crosstrek Hybrid (PHEV, ~17 miles of EV range, curb weight of 3717 lbs). So roughly a 400-500lb weight increase.
Another comparison might be a Jeep Wrangler base 4dr (4449 lbs curb weight and up) compared to the 4xe PHEV version (21 miles of ev range, 5,072 lbs curb weight and up). Roughly a 500lb weight increase.
You could try this comparison on 2wd vehicles as well if desired (e.g. toyota prius vs. prius prime).
While neither scenarios are an EREV, the comparison is a bit similar in thinking about the tradeoffs in hybrid conversions of existing ICE vehicles, where presumably the engine would be retained and drivetrain/battery components to facilitate electric propulsion are added.
Designing an EREV from ground up can be much less weight but depends on vehicle type size, such as a BMW I3 (a small urban 2WD car with CFRP body panels, narrower staggered wheels and other weight savings by design) has a curb weight closer to 3276 lbs. There's tradeoffs with that low weight - the small range extender engine has less power, the gas tank only adds about 80 miles of range, etc.
I'm not sure I agree. You would need 24 LFP prismatic EVE cells (Which are EV rated) to get to ~20kWh (72v at ~300ah). They weigh about 5.5kg/cell. That's nearly 300lbs in cells alone (not accounting for wiring/support/cooling). I would pretty easily see total weight hitting 500lbs (or more).
You can do it more efficiently with different chemistries, and you can scale down your storage for less range - but 500lbs seems pretty reasonable for a retrofit.
Ex - your own linked kit doesn't include any storage, and the motor alone weighs 120lbs. There is NO WAY you're getting away with 150 lbs when the motor alone eats 120lbs.
Lead acid... come on... a 100ah 12v lead acid (1.2kWh - of which only .6kWh is really usable because of chemistry) weighs 70lbs on a good day. A normal EV will do 3-4/kwh. 5kWh of usable charge (20 mile range) from those things is going to run you 10 batteries, for 660lbs. And that's NOT including any other parts of the retrofit (like that 120lb motor, or the wiring [thick wire is heavy] or the electronics).
To be clear - this is 55lbs for 5kwh of power in a 22v nominal pack. You will need more than one to get to 20 miles of range in an aftermarket conversion, and you will still have to add 100+lbs of motor on top, in addition to cooling/wiring/electronics.
I see this system coming in around 300lbs on the low side.
Again - the battery is not the system, and this is still 100lbs of battery to get to 20m of range in an aftermarket conversion.
Having a small engine (lawnmower size) that doesn't generate enough power to operate the car, but will charge the battery, would seem like a nice convenience because you won't necessarily need a charging station to continue your trip.
Such a setup is vastly less efficient for small engines. If the combusion engine is turning, the best way to use that power is directly to the wheels, as opposed converting it back and forth to electricity.
This is not necessarily true, but it is often true for consumer car models that are already designed in quite complex ways around driveshaft power, with abundant compromises and costs. It's never "directly" transferred; Not even close. Something like an automatic transmission is a miracle of engineering perspicacity over the decades. If you're going to spend thousands of dollars including one based on driveshafts, then electric conversion looks a bit silly.
In locomotives, some ships, and now tanks they're replacing the whole drivetrain with copper wire driven by an ICE alternator. Even with zero energy storage this permits a dramatic simplification of the vehicle, and often we're more than willing to pay the cost of mechanical->electric->mechanical conversion efficiency in exchange for losing a bunch of cams, gears, and 90 degree joints that each eat a little energy, take up space in the design, and weigh a significant amount. And it is very often the case that adding energy storage (a very simply bolt-on + software changes) permits dramatically reducing the size of the engine needed.
Small engines are very different than big. They have very different needs re weight and complexity. A locomotive drive engine is basically mated to its power generating engine, moving in lockstep. Everything gets more complicated when one also wants to charge a battery. (Fyi, many locomotives have huge banks of resisters specifically for dumping energy into heat, which is not an option for cars.)
Separating charge and power deliver requires two motors, a power-harvesting generator connected to the combustion engine and a separate drive motor. Those would need to be electrically separated since they would be always turning at different rates. That means totally separate charge and discharge circuitry, possibly even separate battery banks. Harvesting from the wheels might even require a third circuit to simultaneously charge from two sources. And the drive motor equipment would have to be sized large enough to cover the entire rated power output. Secondly, such a battery-in-line arrangement may create a battery-essential system whereby if the battery failed/discharged/overheated, the vehicle would just stop despite still having a working combustion engines. (The power direct from the generator may not be compatible with the drive motor.)
Modern hybrids bypass all these problems by routing the IC engine to the wheels. The electrical system is then a single motor and an additional sprocket in the transmission. Power is then added or removed through a single motor and associated circuitry with no need to generate and provide electrical power simultaneously (F1 cars used to work like this). Add an extra differential, aka a "hybrid transmission", and you can run either motor alone or together (as in the Prius).
Such a setup can be more efficient - but only if everything is tuned perfectly. ICE engines are generally most efficient at low RPM and high throttle settings (last time I saw the graphs it was 1950RPM at 87% throttle peaked at 43% efficient, but that was one particular engine: yours will be different) - so you the entire system tuned around this, mistakes mean you either are running lower throttle or spinning extra mass not needed. Very few companies have the ability to design an engine around their exact needs - only the large automakers can really pull it off and they typically trade engines with other auto makers so they can offer more engine options in their cars than they have designed.
I guess the principle would be that you just don't care. The cost savings of not designing a powertrain/gearbox, not manufacturing it, reduced moving parts needing maintenance, etc etc. The trade-off _might_ be worth it.
It would be interesting to see the numbers I guess. For one, the manufacturer is offloading that energy burden onto the owner, not themselves.
IIRC A large portion of the carbon created by a car is during the manufacture, so if you're not forging a prop shaft and machining a gearbox, is it acceptable to reduce engine efficiency by some measure? Especially given the engine won't run all the time, just when the battery drop to some margin the car feels it should start charging.
Potentially (theorising here) Your EV will last longer before getting crushed into a cube, as it can compensate for battery degradation, your engine will last longer as it will have a fairly stable usage load (revs etc) and won't be used much
You can also add more gears in the transmission to make it more efficient as well. Gears are very efficient than conversion to/from electric (that is a series model, not even charging a battery.) The only way to make this work is if the engine is very undersized - the more load an engine is under the higher the efficiency, with gears alone though you would end up with an engine that takes unacceptably long to get up to speed, and slows down when going uphill, or into a headwind. If you are going ICE to battery you can have that undersized engine, and make up the extra losses by using the battery when needed, hence a hybrid car.
Not true. What a series hybrid does is give you big-engine power for small-engine efficiency. Pull onto the highway and you get 350 hp from the battery, which the engine recharges at a steady 50 hp. If you have a big engine you are only losing efficiency.
Electro Automotive did this in California for 30 years. The owner recently retired and shut down. There's something of a business in converting classic cars to electric, because maintaining the antique technology costs more than a conversion. There are plenty of kits for this sold online.
The usual "custom part" needed is an adapter plate to attach the motor to the transmission, and possibly a spline. Plus motor mounts. Once you have the adapter plate pattern for a car model, it's possible to drill one from a blank. Here are some adapters.[1]
Where to put the battery? Real electric cars put it under the floor, which keeps the CG low and provides enough space for a large battery. Conversions have less battery space and may be top-heavy.
No, because that space is still occupied by all the auxiliary devices that still have to be there, and of course the electric motor which - while smaller than most ICEs - is still sizable. Converted cars have less space under the bonnet than most people would guess.
Beyond space concerns, there are balance concerns. You could fill the trunk or hood with batteries, but that adds 1000+ pounds to the end(s) of the car, so it will be a poor driving experience (for reference, a good size ICE engine is ~500 lbs). The best EV conversions spread the batteries throughout the car so it remains balanced (but that's pretty complex in terms of packaging and wiring).
Not necessarily! The front of the car could be lighter or heavier as long as the total car is balanced. This is the way that the high-end EV conversions do it (e.g. https://revoltsystems.com), but most at-home EV conversions simply fill the trunk with batteries which is way simpler but won't be nearly as good a driving experience (e.g. https://ev8electric.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05...)
I visited Uruguay every year in the 1980s and 90s. There were tons of old cars and trucks. My great-uncle had an English car from the 1930s which he still drove.
They have almost all disappeared. My most recent trip was in 2023 and I only saw two old Fiat 500s.
The irony is that they have gas BYDs, which I had never heard of until last year.
Anyway, Uruguay is a small country but it has a very good educational system, so it's not surprising that many interesting companies come from there.
> The irony is that they have gas BYDs, which I had never heard of until last year
BYD bought out a failing automotive company decades ago which became BYD Auto, and continued building ICE cars. They only began mass producing EVs in the 2010s after getting a massive cash infusion from Berkshire Hathaway and Blackrock around 2008-09
They had the tooling for 9th gen corollas, which they fitted with mistubishi engines. One cold take a BYD F3 door and put it in a corolla. Fit like a glove.
Back in the 90s, I carpooled with a friend who had a retrofitted Honda CRX. I remember the first time he picked me up in it, we rolled out of my driveway and then started down the street and I was wondering when he‘d turn the engine on and stop relying on gravity to move the car (I used to use the same trick with my stick-shift Miata) and then I realized that he was, it’s just that the electric motor was silent.
The other fun thing was watching the battery gauge fall as we went up the ramp on the 10-57 interchange in San Dimas. Being an early adopter, the commute from Claremont to Orange County was just within the range of his EV. He later went on to be one of the first lessees of the EV1 and was interviewed in Who Killed the Electric Car?
I happen to be in Uruguay right now (from the US). I rented a car -- didn't see an EV option. I've driven from Montevideo to Punta Del Diablo and I haven't seen a charging station :-( I wasn't looking for one, and checking the map just now, they do exist.
Not surprised you haven't seen EVs for rent, since the charging network, although it exists, is woefully unsufficient for non-expert users. Montevideo is a city of ~1.5M people and there are less than 30 charging stations. It's not viable to charge "at home" unless you live in a house; I have never seen an apartment buildings garage prepared for EV charging.
Yikes! Looks hopeful as of 3rd of September they say the following on facebook:
> Just a small mid-late month update. Thanks again to everyone who has donated. Small and big all donations make a big difference for our prototyping effort. We are now just waiting on coils and cnc to come through which should be a week or so. We finished clearing away all the rubble from the fire and the new shed is now built and sealed ready to start housing REVR! We have had some very productive discussions and vid calls with people looking to help make REVR happen which we may be able to elaborate on in future. We have also entered the Samsung Solve For Tomorrow comp to promote REVR. There is some more good competition news we can't wait to share. Will have some more substantial updates very soon.
- Alex
Regular cars were carefully designed to fold like an accordion in case of impact, so people will be safe
Now add to the equation a big flammable battery below the people in the areas designed to fold and you will have a lot of scorching fun if the car that you drive eventually hit something.
Do we really need to explain why this is a recipe for trouble?.
The conversion is labor intensive, and thus it makes sense in the countries where labor is relatively cheap (and regulations are usually more relaxed), and has no way in the US and Western Europe.
The conversion itself is no brainer - you old beat up car with the older and weaker and relatively inefficient ICE engine, may be even carburetor one, becomes more performant, easier to maintain, cheaper to drive (especially given that electricity is frequently government subsidized). And the conversion is pretty cheap if you bring the parts from Alibaba, the prismatic batteries for example are well under $100/KWh.
What is the evolution regarding energy density, I have a PHEV with 11kWh in the trunk. If it was 20kWh, it would cover my daily commute. Are anyone offering battery upgrades to existing EVs?
I'm in the same boat - I have a Volvo PHEV with an 11.6kWh battery, and Volvo upgraded that battery in newer models to 18.8kWh. And the thing is....the battery takes the exact same space as before - it was just an improvement in battery packaging which allowed them to do this. But....I can't fit this newer battery to my car, even though it would physically fit - the systems inside the car will not allow it to work. If there was a company that offered this as a paid upgrade for my car I'd gladly pay for it.
I think my longest commute was 50 miles (Claremont to El Segundo). I used to drive to the Norwalk end of the Green Line to reduce the drive time at the expense of commute time by taking the train the last stretch of the commute. It’s a little stunning to think about all the sense memories I have from that commute 30 years later.
You seem shadowbanned and I had to vouch for this comment to make it visible. Your last comments seem ok, so maybe you want to mail dang (the moderator) about your account.
Generally speaking since DC charging is so fast, you need to have very tight control over the cooling and performance of the cells or you’ll have issues with longevity. Lots of retrofits just kind of stuff batteries wherever they fit… so cooling isn’t going to be the most effective. By comparison, AC charging, even at 12kW, is quite slow for a decent sized battery pack.
I don’t think there’s any technical/protocol reason you couldn’t do this, it just complicates things quite a bit.
- ChaDeMo is being phased out despite being the best one (V2G & simplicity of use)
- CCS2 is what the big manufacturers have come up with and it is hilariously complicated. My friend Uwe developed the FOCCCI project that has reverse engineered it
- In the US Tesla are using NACS (not sure on the details)
I am recording a video series where I illuminate the tech behind EVs, charging and energy, you can find it in my submissions.
There's more complicated software involved in DC charging due to the much higher power levels, plus more complicated monitoring of the system. AC charging is much more straight forward and simple.
In other words, cost is the issue here. If you have a large budget, you can get the best components. But with a lot of conversions, the whole point is giving a second life to an otherwise relatively worthless car and avoiding the larger expense of getting a proper EV. It doesn't make sense to get tens of thousands of dollars worth of components for that. Simple, easy, and cheap is the whole goal here.
There are some nice conversion kits for things like classic cars where it makes sense to have fast charging. But then we're talking 50-60k in cost and a lot of labor. For that kind of money, you can get several decent second hand EVs or even a new one. Spending that kind of money is only interesting because it's a classic car. E.g. a lot of old porsches apparently drive a lot nicer and better after an EV conversion. Also not having them break down with weird mechanical issues all the time makes driving them more fun. Also, more torque, power, etc.
But you wouldn't do that with some generic consumer car where the whole point of the conversion is avoiding the expense of buying a proper EV. You can get some nice used EVs for under 10K now. Pretty decent ones even.
Several reasons: because AC charging is what people will generally have at their house, so if you only have one charging system that's the one you'd probably go with. Because there are several pretty good AC charging system that are sold to the DIY conversion market. And because EV conversions often run at relatively low voltages compared to OEM vehicles, and DC charge stations generally have a minimum voltage they're willing to charge, which I think is usually somewhere around 400 volts or so.
Large cities in countries where many people can't afford cars, and there's little mass transit, will be more compact. No driving 10 miles to the mall like the USA. Shorter distances, less need for huge battery packs, or the latest technology. Most AC parts can be had off the shelf.
Putting DC charging in an EV is like putting a turbo in a gas car. You can do it, but it'll be expensive and complicated, and you probably don't need it.
Well that’s not really how it works. Even with 22 kW AC (what is rare in Europe) Tesla model Y needs 4 hours to charge from empty to road ready. And it is show stopper, because any petrol car needs 5 minutes to go another 300-600 miles. With DC charger I can have a normal break of 40 minutes and have enough charge for another 300 miles. DC charging is the topic to ease range anxiety and make EVs viable replacement for petrol cars. Without gooood DC charging capability the electric cars are suitable as city cars at best.
Edit: model Y does not support 22 kW AC charging. Only 11 kW AC. And it still takes whole day to fully charge.
The point is that maybe most(some?) people don't need DC charging at all. I've owned our VW e-Up for 3 years now, drive it literally every day, and I never needed to fast charge it because I've not once taken it on a trip longer than its battery range. I just never had a need. In fact I'm just charging it from a normal domestic socket at a meagre 2kW once a week and that's absolutely enough. Obviously it won't work for everyone, but I bet it would work for a whole range of people - some of my friends have definitely never driven more than 100 miles in a day in their cars and they lug around 50 litres of petrol in their tanks "just in case".
I don't know many cities which would challenge a 400km EV range, actually with that range I'm already across the border in any direction I'd drive. But okay I'm one of the dozen or so people who don't live in the US.
I look at car channels on YouTube and there’s all this community around engine swaps and similar so it remains disappointing that there isn’t any real gas->EV equivalent market. I assume part of it is imply lack of secure space for the giant explosive mass that is current lithium battery tech, but it’s still surprising that there’s seemingly next to no option.
There's a UK shop that does EV swaps I follow, they do beautiful vintage cars, even a pair of Ferrari Testarossa's.
They describe themselves as "the world's largest converter of classic cars to electric" while also boasting "our wealth of experience having converted over 70 cars"
It does not exist outside of diy enthusiasts in the west as a used electric car will have more range and be cheaper.
So currently it's an enthusiast thing.
I occasionally see these channels when they do EV conversions and it's amusing that they need to do a little disclaimer at the start to prove that they're not some kind of Marxist and prove their ICE credentials just because they're interested in an EV conversion.
You sometimes see similar for anyone working on offgrid solar PV.
Possibly it's just the channels the algorithm feeds me but it feels like engineering reality is slowly penetrating the political fog over time.
The problem is the vast majority of the cost of an EV is the batteries. You save very little money from not buying other parts, and lose a fair bit of performance.
"giant explosive mass that is current lithium battery tech" <-- full petrol tank is the same, anything that is energy dense like that will have problems with uncontrolled release of that energy.
Equivalent market exists, but is less established, some keywords that might be worth looking at:
> full petrol tank is the same, anything that is energy dense like that will have problems with uncontrolled release of that energy.
We are smarter than this. This is the reason to put the petrol tank in the back. In case of fire, the flames and heat will move back, in the opposite direction to the people in the car.
In this photos I see batteries shamelessly put in the front. This is a nice human barbecue. On a moving car, it means that a fire starting here would move backwards, to engulf directly the people in the car.
And, unlike a gasoline fire, this batteries are basically impossible to stop after they start burning. Not with conventional means.
I want electric cars, but designed to be safe electric cars, not this mess where anybody can turn their car into giant molotov cocktails and drive in the same road as me. Is not only their lives what they are risking.
I don't have an EV in Southern Europe because there are hardly any charging stations and as we live in apartments you can't charge it at home either as the communal parking doesn't have a charging station.
Which is weird, considering there's 3 phase AC 400V infrastructure everywhere in Europe. Putting 7-11kW slow chargers in every apartment's parking lot would be perfectly doable.
Do note that many apartment buildings in europe are 100+ years old and where not built with parking lots.
Commonly, cars are parked on the street outside, and therefore there is definitely not enough space outside an apartmentbuilding for cars if all apartment owners had one.
In modern, and newly built apartment buildings I imagine that this is probably already in place due to eco-hysteria.
If there's no parking lot, that's a car problem, not an EV problem. This is a hairy issue, but in my experience, getting around in densely packed city centers with a car is asking for trouble - dense traffic and generally no parking spaces.
I did use to live in a place like that, and I stored my car in a P+R on the outskitrts of the city.
Even owning an EV motorbike is sometimes difficult, I have been looking for an e-motorbike/moped and there are only a couple of models with an extractible battery and only one I have found that has the battery that is easily transportable (you pull it like a trolley bagage) when your bike is staying in the street: The Silence S01 and S02 (S01 being also sold under the Seat brand).
I bought my Taiwanese Econelo e-roller from Netto for 1.400 €. I can take out the 5kg battery and carry it upstairs to charge, but I also put down a charging cable from my kitchen to the parking lot. When driving around I have the charger with me, and I usually charge at work also for 2hrs. Because the range is only 40km now.
> Each new component for the vehicle is custom-made.
... which to me is kinda shocking. Both in terms of the cost of components and the labor needed to figure out each vehicle's specific conversion, this seems expensive, slow, and perhaps is a source of quality/safety concerns.
While I love the idea of being able to convert existing vehicles, more cheaply and with fewer resources than building all-new EVs, I'd think that you'd want:
- standardized components
- standardized math on safety implications (e.g. for the amount of increased mass, how do the breaks need to change to keep a reasonable stopping distance? Given some assumptions about driving speed, where does the center of mass need to be to avoid increased chance of rolling?)
- a slowly expanding database of specifics for each model and year, so if you're converting a previously-converted model, you can just follow a pre-compiled list of steps
As others have said, the article kind of exaggerated the situation -- EV conversions tend to use a lot of fairly standard parts. However, how those parts all fit together varies from one vehicle to another, and there's usually at least some parts that have to be custom made. Battery boxes, motor mounts, adapter plates to mount the motor to the transmission (if the original transmission is kept), and so on.
It'd be great if there were standard EV conversion kits for common ICE vehicles, designed to just bolt in with no fabrication required, designed to the same engineering standards as the original vehicle, and cheap. Something a typical mechanic could install in a week or less. That basically has to exist for EV conversion be a thing that happens on a large scale and not just a difficult and expensive weird hobby project. It's a shame EV tax credits don't apply to conversions -- it could absorb a substantial chunk of the cost. (Maybe some country somewhere does this, but not the U.S. anyways.)
Ideally dealing with extra weight and so on could be a relative non-issue as long as the battery pack is kept fairly small -- which is often the case on EV conversions because a) batteries are expensive and b) it's often hard to find a good place to cram them all. If the batteries are kept low, then center of gravity shouldn't be a problem. Probably better than the original configuration.
I've heard that having more than 50% of the weight on the back tires can be dangerous, as it's much harder to correct if you lose traction. The tendency is to spin out. So, putting all the batteries in the trunk is probably a bad idea in many cases.
There are off-the-shelf standard components for all major parts of the EV drivetrain.
The custom work is mostly in wiring that up, and building a battery cradle and motor mounts that can be installed without compromising car's original structure.
> Both in terms of the cost of components and the labor needed to figure out each vehicle's specific conversion, this seems expensive, slow, and perhaps is a source of quality/safety concerns.
We are speaking about countries where that sort of labor costs between $0.5 to $3 per hour. The parts used aren't factory-new and the cost of labor is minuscule in comparison to the price of the vehicle.
There is no money for safety. You make do with what you have.
Another poster mentioned after taxes vehicles cost 1.5-2x of the US cost. There'd be more money for safety if they weren't so busy taxing the everliving shit out of car buyers.
Geometric relationships between engine mounts, engine itself, and engine output shaft into the transmission varies between each models. Trying to "standardize" that will be like trying to design a one-size-fits-all laptop motherboard; no two models are the same, so it won't work.
There's a lot of videos about EV conversions on YT but they're mostly on the edutainment side not a full on course. Watching RichRebuilds, JerryRigEverything's jeep conversion gives you an overview of the process and they're entertaining if you're completely new to the idea.
Reminds me of Exponential Motors, a startup/project created by a chilean, an argentinean and a mexican in Singularity University, who made somo prototypes converting cars to hybrids with supercapacitors.
And, to contribute something to the discussion: yeah, here in Argentina we have a similar situation. Import taxes are stupid high for some (most) products, making them prohibitively expensive for most people. Although high levels of inequality allow some people to access these kinds of goods, so for exmaple there's a non-zero market for iPhones here.
In the case of EVs, i haven't seen any cars here yet[1] —i suspect because of total lack of infrastructure for them, besides the high prices— but there's quite a lively market of electric scooters in Buenos Aires. They are not that expensive, and people can charge them in their homes.
This Uruguayan initiative of retrofitting electric motors into old cars is encouraging. I hope regulations serve a good purpose like setting good standards, instead of killing the movement outright :/
[1]: There's an Argentinian-made electric car with which i unfortunately share a nickname: Tito. But it's a total scam; a Chinese design ripoff with a ridiculously high price for what it's worth.
We’re in Punta del Diablo right now, and heading back down toward Montevideo (but not all the way) this weekend, then next weekend back to Montevideo to fly out. Any recommendations on where to stop on the way back? Anything important to see along the way?
And what’s up with the random street performers? :-) We’ve seen jugglers and unicyclists at seemingly random street locations, just doing their thing ? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Regenerative braking is so far from being an innovation on Tesla's part. Regenerative braking as a technology has been around since 1886, and was even seen in some of the earliest electric cars at the end of the 19th century (krieger electric landaulet).
Even when you fast forward to modern production cars, the Prius had a regenerative braking system almost a decade before the Tesla Roadster came out.
You might want to check out "Elon Musk" by Vance on what his innovations were with the battery and drive system. Yes, people knew about regenerative braking. When was the last time someone built an electric car with regenerative braking? The Tesla was not built with off-the-shelf batteries and drive systems. Musk originally tried to, but they were unworkable.
I always expected the tinfoil hats to raise up when many mainstream series made fun of prius owners being pretentious dorks, or when Musk came out of the closet as a republican and everyone started hating the brand [1].
I half expected them to say that it was the work of big-oil.
This makes me wonder though wheather the grid infrastructure in Uruguay is ready for a scenario where a substantial percentage of the countries cars need to charge their batteries regularly?
The (state-owned) power company owning the grid and much of the generation for the country has been pushing this change forward. The country has transitioned from almost pure hydro to wind and has an excess of this type of generation, especially at night when it would be the ideal charging time.
There's also initiatives to encourage permanent grid use by the cars since the batteries can provide capacitive load which locally counters the grid's natural inductive load which is beneficial if it can be leveraged.
Charging at night at home - and that is your main option when charging infra is lacking - may even be an improvement for the nation grid's overall health and economics.
And I'll also add that night-charging can only scale up to a point, there's a point where the country would end up consuming more at night than during the day.
So it really depends on the local situation, local energy mix, local infrastructure.
Charging at a couple of kW for the night is enough for almost everybody. Very few people drive hundreds of kilometers every day and the typical EV needs 10-20kWh/100km. The grid should handle that without a problem in most places, I think. Cars are parked most of the day. If most of the parking spots offer a kW or two charging becomes a nonissue.
Solar power is new development, and it would be naturally to do it in parallel with charging infra in business districts thus providing another sink for all that daytime generated power.
This is amazing. It's a shame how western media and governments aim to cover up such information and then try to regulate the movement out of existence... Again under the guise of 'safety'.
If this movement picks up, you know for sure that governments will be doing PsyOps to stage and draw attention to battery explosions and then claim "Look, we told you it was unsafe." Disgusting.
Yes. Used Nissan LEAF is like $1500 at the lowest end. Same for Prius. Lots of them should be able to continue to roll on the ground for a decade or so on bald tires. It'll be very hard to undercut those.
This is encouraging. We need more of these EV retro-fit kits in developing countries, where buying EVs is prohibitively expensive. Obviously, we need a way of safety certifying the kits and the end product as well.
Uruguay is among the most developed countries [1] in South America (2024 nominal GDP per capita: ~$23K; Chile ~$16.5K) with human development index of 0.83 (very high). Yet, the list price of new vehicles is easily 1.5x - 2x that in the US, and EVs are quite out of reach for most residents. (ex: Honda Civic HEV is listed for USD 55K [2])
By offering modestly priced EV retrofit kits, a market need is clearly being met.
- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Uruguay - [2] https://www.hondauruguay.com/civic-e-hev.html
we need this in all countries. In fact it's curious that this is not the first priority
This is useful only in some cases when it's better to keep some of the old stuff. It doesn't make sense to convert a post-2000 car: it would be very inefficient regarding the space use (too much stuff already in, no place for large enough battery, ...), the electricity consumption (those cars have a lot of electronics/ACs not optimised for batteries), and price wise (most of those cars don't cost much today).
It would be much more efficient to create cheap/light EVs: today's focus is mostly on expensive/large EVs with a huge lot of accessories/screens/... because that's where the money is for regular car brands. But if one make could build something like a Willys Jeep EV, or a least something like an early-90s small car that didn't have all of todays gadgets (Renault Twingo, Mini, Volkswagen Coccinelle, ...), they would be much more useful for those markets.
Another problem is still electricity grid: in a lot of countries, it's not up-to a large scale EV deployment.
Agree but with the logic that "all types" need to be made.
There is a very good market for a car for city dwellers, especially as a second car for them. Many families have two cars (get over it, that's reality), but I often see them buy that second car as an EV, keeping a gas guzzler to assuage range fears.
This is an excellent opportunity for that small, 100km range, low tech as you say car. Just batteries, motor. Just for local jaunts. Perfect.
I could do a commuter car with even a 50 km range, if it was cheap enough. But since I need a heater and air conditioner, and modern safety regulations are what they are, there’s very little chance that it can be made cheaply enough.
And here comes the transparent children of EVs: Mitsubishi i-MiEV and Nissan LEAF.
This phenomenon is not so surprising considering that the sole point of existence of Tesla was basically to give the middle finger to those and the Prius, but they exactly fit the criteria of mass market EVs precisely by the letters.
Especially the i-MiEV(pronounced eye-meeve). It was a Kei car!
I can only say that I'd be a customer for this. I'd much rather electrify my old car than throw it away to buy a brand new car with a ton of features (and anti-features [1]) that I don't want.
If somebody sold a cheap, mostly-analog electric car I'd probably buy it. But they probably never will in the US.
[1] https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/article...
"But if one make could build something like a Willys Jeep EV"
Look up electric mini moke. Exactly what you are describing. Rich man's toy mind. If there's a Chinese knock off it could be very cheap though.
Hard disagree. It does not make sense in most nations with higher skilled labor wages. It makes no financial sense especially considering you would be spending a hefty premium on top of the vehicle itself. Better for that ICE to live its useful life as it is.
Car companies rather sell new cars, than conversion kits and they do have quite a lobby.
This is flagrant with the EU raising import tariffs on Chinese EV.
There is a lot of communication about the climate transition and how electric stuff is needed to save the world, but when cheap options are available from China it's a big no no because it goes against European manufacturers interests.
Exactly. This whole scheme won't work in EU because it's against car manufacturer's interest. The whole of eastern Europe is flooded by second hand German cars and the reason is twofold. First, the western Europe still can afford to change cars every few years, and secondly, the purchase power IMO of the eastern Europe is falling behind so second hand cars look more affordable then buying a new one.
If I were to install an electric motor in my car there is no chance I'm hell that I would be able to make it road legal. Last year I bought homologated Philips LED bulbs for my car to replace crappy incandescent bulbs and the car failed the inspection. "You can't have LED bulbs on a car manufactured with incandescents". Doesn't matter that the beam is completely correct and doesn't blind other drivers, and they have instruments to check it. "It the law, go away".
Have you considered taking the whole vehicle out-of-type and getting all existing parts approved under IVA before giving up?
To be clear, it's both the manufacturer's interests and the interests of European workers. As long as we demand from every person that they earn a living, them using their political power to protect their national industry should be expected. Yes, cheap Chinese EV's are better for the environment, but that's small comfort to all the people employed by European car companies that are getting out-competed who hit the streets as a result.
If we want to start actually tackling climate change we need to unwind this notion that everyone must earn a living because there are simply vast swathes of the economy that are just redundant and do not need to exist.
"If we want to start actually tackling climate change we need to unwind this notion that everyone must earn a living because there are simply vast swathes of the economy that are just redundant and do not need to exist"
Or we start tackling some inbalancies. Why is it so much cheaper to build in china?
(Mainly less regulations and cheaper labour I think)
But if we would be serious about climate change, we would need Chinas and Europes productive capabilities.
The given reason that the EU officials provided when they created the tariffs are major subsidizes from the Chinese government.
Of course, I have yet to see a nation with car manufacturing that do not subsidize that industry. Tax breaks, zero interest loans, help with construction/land, and so on. It also suspected/confirmed? that intelligence agencies also helps by providing industry espionage. With them being that involved it seems that tariffs are less about market forces and more about pure politics.
subsidies
It's the same as mobile phones. Most phones have unreplacible batteries, because it's commercially better for their bottom line.
It's not like phones improve sufficiently to justify buying a new one, but the battery lose charge significantly over time.
A car has similar issues. There are only small parts of the car that wears out, and by replacing those parts, the car can be made to function for significantly longer. But modern cars are so complex and intertwined, that it's difficult to just replace worn parts (not to mention difficult to even find those parts available).
Hopefully the conversion to EV cars will resolve some of these problems, but i dont have high hopes. It's not like EV manufacturers are going out of their way to make the car's batteries replacible.
> It's not like phones improve sufficiently to justify buying a new one, but the battery lose charge significantly over time.
A five year old car engine is basically indistinguishable from a brand new car engine; a five year old cellphone chipset is going to have half of the performance and a quarter of the performance per watt as a brand new cellphone.
Five year old car still gets you from place to place, five year old phone still loads your emails, sends texts, places phone calls, etc...
Most people don't use anywhere near their phones full performance
Or their cars, for that matter
"It's not like EV manufacturers are going out of their way to make the car's batteries replacible"
But since electric cars are mechanically a bit simpler, there are opportunities for small companies willing to disrupt the market or at least find a niche for reliable and easy to fix cars.
> willing to disrupt the market
i doubt it, because the whole platform is controlled by the EV manufacturer, and they can easily prevent it (via software for example). Think inkjet printers.
If EV batteries are to be made replacible, it needs to be mandated by law. And to be honest, i think a car's battery should be replacible (and be easy/convenient to do so) - imagine instead of charging your car, you will drive up to a "gas" station and just replace the current flat batteries with full ones in a few minutes. Think gas stove tanks.
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I wonder how these conversion kits affect safety. These cars are crash-tested at a specific weight distribution. Adding lots of batteries make the car behave different besides being a fire hazard. I would expect that converted cars need to be inspected thoroughly before being allowed on the road.
People already convert gasoline to gas. Weight can be added
I doubt this is economically feasible in high-wage countries (like Germany). Yes, EVs are expensive, but having a car completely transformed (plus certifcations and the cost of the transformation kit itself) will be even more expensive.
There are a few companies doing it in EU but most of them are focusing on premium classic cars.
For some of those, especially sports car, it can look as a sacrilege but I would have no issue converting say, a Bentley, Rolls Royce or Jaguar/Daimler coach to electric. These used to be built to transport rich people in total comfort, you don't need a smelly, noisy engine on them anyway.
Exactly what I mean - car freaks (if they are not "combustion engine freaks") with enough disposable income surely love this. But it's not a feasible way to transform the individual transport sector to a greener footprint.
The issue for the cars owners is that it become harder to sell the car later, exactly because of this transformation. So you basically transform it and drive until it dies (which is not bad from my POV), but that is something that make people think twice before doing it.
> Yet, the list price of new vehicles is easily 1.5x - 2x that in the US
I'm assuming this is because of taxes or import tariffs, or something similarly self-imposed?
Yes. Substantial taxes on imports for vehicles from outside Mercosur, also taxes based on engine size and a few other parameters.
Genius. Incentivize economic production in industries where you have less comparative advantage. A common story of contribution to poverty in SA, although to be fair Uruguay is better than most others on the continent.
How do you build that comparative advantage though? You think Japan or South Korea didn't have protectionist policies until they figured out how to produce such things competitively?
Precisely. The theory of comparative advantage literally says "you can't finance e.g. industrialization by the market means, it's strictly and highly unprofitable, no entrepreneur in their right mind would (or even could) do this", yet somehow people routinely tout it as a decisive argument for laissez-faire.
And Japan's history of the state support for its automotive industry is quite something.
I'm Uruguayan and this drives me crazy. Specially for products that are also tools for industries where we can and do compete. Buying a computer in Uruguay costs about twice as much as in the US.
If this is all self imposed by tariffs, which as far as I know it is, what industry are the tariffs really defending? Certainly not Uruguayan electronics manufacturers, there aren't any. The only people that I imagine benefit are customs officers and companies that import stuff to sell in Uruguay. There isn't any new capability to build things that the country gets in return. We learn from exporting talent instead.
And if we want to compete we need to do it globally. Our market is too small, the population is ~3M.
>The only people that I imagine benefit are customs officers and companies that import stuff to sell in Uruguay.
How do high tariffs help importing companies? Wouldn't they be able to sell more (and thus import more) if the end prices to the consumer were lower?
Fair point, I might be mistaken. But I think there are lots of small resellers that wouldn't exist if buying online from abroad was as seamless and risk free as buying online locally through mercado libre. The real problem is the requirement of contacting a customs officer to import anything above 200usd, and the risk of having the product stopped by customs. The resellers value is in saving you that bureaucracy by doing it in bulk. And in practice, because of the small market, it greatly reduces the variety of products on offer.
This got to be negligible next to corruption and the cost of being small countries (more prone to market failures, small import/export traffic, brain drain).
> We need more of these EV retro-fit kits in developing countries
why? fossil fuels will remain economical for at least 100 more years.
What do you mean by "economical"?
EV already beats ICE in some dimensions of economy.
10 year TCO for a barebones Prius is lower than TCO for an EV, when counting things like battery replacement and charger installation.
Most cars can't dream of being anywhere near as efficient as a Prius. But yes if you can get your gasoline spending under $1000/year then you can probably match or beat electric. Throwing US averages at a calculator says an equivalently priced Leaf would have $200 less in fuel costs per year compared to the Prius getting 57 mpg. At that point it's up to the random maintenance costs.
Is there a reason not more popular to create hybrids that have no traditional powertrain? IT seems like it would be cost effective.
i.e. the petrol engine effectively just runs a generator to the batteries. You don't need prop shafts/gearboxes/transfer case/axles/alternator/starter etc.
If you can integrate the motor assembly into the wheel hub you don't need any kind of axle at all.
If/when the batteries degrade and lose capacity, you can just rely on the engine more.
The engine won't ever have to 'work' too hard, because when you accelerate hard the energy dump can just come from the battery reserve. Like it could just idle along at a more-or-less fixed rpm.
> i.e. the petrol engine effectively just runs a generator to the batteries. You don't need prop shafts/gearboxes/transfer case/axles/alternator/starter etc.
But you can't take advantage of that without handling every specific make of car. You need to design a specific solution for each engine.
> If you can integrate the motor assembly into the wheel hub you don't need any kind of axle at all.
This has a lot of downsides; the unsprung weight is very high which makes the ride much harsher. It's also very hard on the motors because of the shaking. There's only a few inches of space to claim in a normal wheel well by replacing and widening the tire. If you replace the suspension knuckle you have to make it work for all different makes.
All that said, I do think there's an underserved opportunity for a drop-in solution that just replaces the engine. Basically the same thing you're proposing, but why keep the old engine?
Replace it, and you can make a series-parallel hybrid, which is the ideal type. It's an engine connected by a clutch and single reducer to the driveshaft, with a motor connected to the engine (or by gears). At low throttle the motor acts like a generator, using the opportunity to increase engine load, charge the battery, and run the engine in a more efficient torque. At high throttle the motor joins the engine, increasing power. At cruise, the motor freewheels. For short trips the engine disconnects and the car runs on battery. You don't need an additional generator, the engine gets an efficient shaft connection, and it can still run battery-only. Best of all worlds and IMO worth trashing the engine.
If you drop in a full unit with batteries etc you might need a few configurations for different engine bays, but you can just have a variety of mounting points for different makes. Plug into the radiator for cooling. Give a serpentine belt wheel for accessories, or just have an AC onboard and use a spool valve to split some off to col the batteries better.
The issue with an EREV conversion is going to be weight, practicality, and thermal management of the battery.
Weight: You're adding about 500 lbs to the car to do this with ~20 miles of ev range. Suspension may need to be altered to support this.
Practicality: the batteries have to go somewhere and they can't go under the hood since the engine is still there, so they may go in the bottom of the trunk. From the examples I've seen there's usually less cargo capacity, and the spare tire is removed. Some vehicles that are already hybrids (e.g. Toyota sienna 2022-) have an already tight layout with exhaust and all that it becomes a design challenge to fit a larger battery.
Thermals: a li-ion battery for an EREV likely needs thermal management so it doesn't lose range prematurely, so you either need a dedicated cooling line setup that works with the ac compressor (bmw i3) or an aircooled setup where the battery is in the trunk and relies on cabin ac/heat (various toyota hybrid models do this).
> Weight: You're adding about 500 lbs to the car to do this with ~20 miles of ev range.
No. The drive unit of a Tesla + 4 battery modules weighs 500 lbs. That's 21 kWh, 80 miles of range and 500 horsepower. And 300 lbs of that is in the drive unit; more common conversion kits weigh ~150 lbs. You could use 500 lbs of regular lead car batteries and still get way more than 20 miles.
https://stealthev.com/product/tesla-performance-rear-drive-u...
https://www.evwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=40&pro...
My points of comparison are simpler - compare a 2019-2023 Subaru Crosstrek (regular non-hybrid model, curb weight of 3117-3298 lbs ) to a 2019-2023 Subaru Crosstrek Hybrid (PHEV, ~17 miles of EV range, curb weight of 3717 lbs). So roughly a 400-500lb weight increase.
Another comparison might be a Jeep Wrangler base 4dr (4449 lbs curb weight and up) compared to the 4xe PHEV version (21 miles of ev range, 5,072 lbs curb weight and up). Roughly a 500lb weight increase.
You could try this comparison on 2wd vehicles as well if desired (e.g. toyota prius vs. prius prime).
While neither scenarios are an EREV, the comparison is a bit similar in thinking about the tradeoffs in hybrid conversions of existing ICE vehicles, where presumably the engine would be retained and drivetrain/battery components to facilitate electric propulsion are added.
Designing an EREV from ground up can be much less weight but depends on vehicle type size, such as a BMW I3 (a small urban 2WD car with CFRP body panels, narrower staggered wheels and other weight savings by design) has a curb weight closer to 3276 lbs. There's tradeoffs with that low weight - the small range extender engine has less power, the gas tank only adds about 80 miles of range, etc.
I'm not sure I agree. You would need 24 LFP prismatic EVE cells (Which are EV rated) to get to ~20kWh (72v at ~300ah). They weigh about 5.5kg/cell. That's nearly 300lbs in cells alone (not accounting for wiring/support/cooling). I would pretty easily see total weight hitting 500lbs (or more).
You can do it more efficiently with different chemistries, and you can scale down your storage for less range - but 500lbs seems pretty reasonable for a retrofit.
Ex - your own linked kit doesn't include any storage, and the motor alone weighs 120lbs. There is NO WAY you're getting away with 150 lbs when the motor alone eats 120lbs.
Lead acid... come on... a 100ah 12v lead acid (1.2kWh - of which only .6kWh is really usable because of chemistry) weighs 70lbs on a good day. A normal EV will do 3-4/kwh. 5kWh of usable charge (20 mile range) from those things is going to run you 10 batteries, for 660lbs. And that's NOT including any other parts of the retrofit (like that 120lb motor, or the wiring [thick wire is heavy] or the electronics).
https://stealthev.com/product/tesla-module/
To be clear - this is 55lbs for 5kwh of power in a 22v nominal pack. You will need more than one to get to 20 miles of range in an aftermarket conversion, and you will still have to add 100+lbs of motor on top, in addition to cooling/wiring/electronics.
I see this system coming in around 300lbs on the low side.
Again - the battery is not the system, and this is still 100lbs of battery to get to 20m of range in an aftermarket conversion.
Having a small engine (lawnmower size) that doesn't generate enough power to operate the car, but will charge the battery, would seem like a nice convenience because you won't necessarily need a charging station to continue your trip.
I know BMW had (has?) a hybrid that does this using a small motorcycle motor.
Such a setup is vastly less efficient for small engines. If the combusion engine is turning, the best way to use that power is directly to the wheels, as opposed converting it back and forth to electricity.
This is not necessarily true, but it is often true for consumer car models that are already designed in quite complex ways around driveshaft power, with abundant compromises and costs. It's never "directly" transferred; Not even close. Something like an automatic transmission is a miracle of engineering perspicacity over the decades. If you're going to spend thousands of dollars including one based on driveshafts, then electric conversion looks a bit silly.
In locomotives, some ships, and now tanks they're replacing the whole drivetrain with copper wire driven by an ICE alternator. Even with zero energy storage this permits a dramatic simplification of the vehicle, and often we're more than willing to pay the cost of mechanical->electric->mechanical conversion efficiency in exchange for losing a bunch of cams, gears, and 90 degree joints that each eat a little energy, take up space in the design, and weigh a significant amount. And it is very often the case that adding energy storage (a very simply bolt-on + software changes) permits dramatically reducing the size of the engine needed.
Small engines are very different than big. They have very different needs re weight and complexity. A locomotive drive engine is basically mated to its power generating engine, moving in lockstep. Everything gets more complicated when one also wants to charge a battery. (Fyi, many locomotives have huge banks of resisters specifically for dumping energy into heat, which is not an option for cars.)
Separating charge and power deliver requires two motors, a power-harvesting generator connected to the combustion engine and a separate drive motor. Those would need to be electrically separated since they would be always turning at different rates. That means totally separate charge and discharge circuitry, possibly even separate battery banks. Harvesting from the wheels might even require a third circuit to simultaneously charge from two sources. And the drive motor equipment would have to be sized large enough to cover the entire rated power output. Secondly, such a battery-in-line arrangement may create a battery-essential system whereby if the battery failed/discharged/overheated, the vehicle would just stop despite still having a working combustion engines. (The power direct from the generator may not be compatible with the drive motor.)
Modern hybrids bypass all these problems by routing the IC engine to the wheels. The electrical system is then a single motor and an additional sprocket in the transmission. Power is then added or removed through a single motor and associated circuitry with no need to generate and provide electrical power simultaneously (F1 cars used to work like this). Add an extra differential, aka a "hybrid transmission", and you can run either motor alone or together (as in the Prius).
Doesn't the Prius also have two motor/generators instead of a single motor?
It had a motor and also used the IC starter motor to harvest energy, but not to provide power.
Such a setup can be more efficient - but only if everything is tuned perfectly. ICE engines are generally most efficient at low RPM and high throttle settings (last time I saw the graphs it was 1950RPM at 87% throttle peaked at 43% efficient, but that was one particular engine: yours will be different) - so you the entire system tuned around this, mistakes mean you either are running lower throttle or spinning extra mass not needed. Very few companies have the ability to design an engine around their exact needs - only the large automakers can really pull it off and they typically trade engines with other auto makers so they can offer more engine options in their cars than they have designed.
> ICE engines are generally most efficient at low RPM and high throttle settings
Which is why modern cars are much more likely to include a sixth gear -> drop the rpm, increase the torque = higher efficiency
I guess the principle would be that you just don't care. The cost savings of not designing a powertrain/gearbox, not manufacturing it, reduced moving parts needing maintenance, etc etc. The trade-off _might_ be worth it.
The geabov is cheap to design compared to the engine. Not free but cheap.
It would be interesting to see the numbers I guess. For one, the manufacturer is offloading that energy burden onto the owner, not themselves.
IIRC A large portion of the carbon created by a car is during the manufacture, so if you're not forging a prop shaft and machining a gearbox, is it acceptable to reduce engine efficiency by some measure? Especially given the engine won't run all the time, just when the battery drop to some margin the car feels it should start charging.
Potentially (theorising here) Your EV will last longer before getting crushed into a cube, as it can compensate for battery degradation, your engine will last longer as it will have a fairly stable usage load (revs etc) and won't be used much
my understanding was that you can run the gas engine in optimal speed to charge the electric engine which makes it more efficient.
You can also add more gears in the transmission to make it more efficient as well. Gears are very efficient than conversion to/from electric (that is a series model, not even charging a battery.) The only way to make this work is if the engine is very undersized - the more load an engine is under the higher the efficiency, with gears alone though you would end up with an engine that takes unacceptably long to get up to speed, and slows down when going uphill, or into a headwind. If you are going ICE to battery you can have that undersized engine, and make up the extra losses by using the battery when needed, hence a hybrid car.
Not true. What a series hybrid does is give you big-engine power for small-engine efficiency. Pull onto the highway and you get 350 hp from the battery, which the engine recharges at a steady 50 hp. If you have a big engine you are only losing efficiency.
But isn't that the same as a diesel-electric locomotive, which is very efficient?
That's Nissan e-POWER system. Alas, Toyota THS is cheaper, probably lighter, and slightly more efficient.
Audi built and competed with a Rally car using a regular TFSI engine that's generating power for the battery.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZhtGlwHlLs
Isn't that the idea behind EREVs (Extended Range EVs) which are wildly popular in China and probably just taking time to reach other markets?
There have been several popular cars available in the US and EU with this design, like the Chevy Volt and BMW i3.
chevy volt
Electro Automotive did this in California for 30 years. The owner recently retired and shut down. There's something of a business in converting classic cars to electric, because maintaining the antique technology costs more than a conversion. There are plenty of kits for this sold online.
The usual "custom part" needed is an adapter plate to attach the motor to the transmission, and possibly a spline. Plus motor mounts. Once you have the adapter plate pattern for a car model, it's possible to drill one from a blank. Here are some adapters.[1]
Where to put the battery? Real electric cars put it under the floor, which keeps the CG low and provides enough space for a large battery. Conversions have less battery space and may be top-heavy.
[1] https://inductiveauto.com/product-category/adapters/
Wouldn't you put the battery in the massive space created by the missing engine block?
No, because that space is still occupied by all the auxiliary devices that still have to be there, and of course the electric motor which - while smaller than most ICEs - is still sizable. Converted cars have less space under the bonnet than most people would guess.
That's where the electric motor goes in retrofits.
Beyond space concerns, there are balance concerns. You could fill the trunk or hood with batteries, but that adds 1000+ pounds to the end(s) of the car, so it will be a poor driving experience (for reference, a good size ICE engine is ~500 lbs). The best EV conversions spread the batteries throughout the car so it remains balanced (but that's pretty complex in terms of packaging and wiring).
Interesting, thank you. This means that you need a 500 lbs motor/battery/circuits combo in the front of the car after the conversion, right?
Not necessarily! The front of the car could be lighter or heavier as long as the total car is balanced. This is the way that the high-end EV conversions do it (e.g. https://revoltsystems.com), but most at-home EV conversions simply fill the trunk with batteries which is way simpler but won't be nearly as good a driving experience (e.g. https://ev8electric.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05...)
I visited Uruguay every year in the 1980s and 90s. There were tons of old cars and trucks. My great-uncle had an English car from the 1930s which he still drove.
They have almost all disappeared. My most recent trip was in 2023 and I only saw two old Fiat 500s.
The irony is that they have gas BYDs, which I had never heard of until last year.
Anyway, Uruguay is a small country but it has a very good educational system, so it's not surprising that many interesting companies come from there.
> The irony is that they have gas BYDs, which I had never heard of until last year
BYD bought out a failing automotive company decades ago which became BYD Auto, and continued building ICE cars. They only began mass producing EVs in the 2010s after getting a massive cash infusion from Berkshire Hathaway and Blackrock around 2008-09
They had the tooling for 9th gen corollas, which they fitted with mistubishi engines. One cold take a BYD F3 door and put it in a corolla. Fit like a glove.
Back in the 90s, I carpooled with a friend who had a retrofitted Honda CRX. I remember the first time he picked me up in it, we rolled out of my driveway and then started down the street and I was wondering when he‘d turn the engine on and stop relying on gravity to move the car (I used to use the same trick with my stick-shift Miata) and then I realized that he was, it’s just that the electric motor was silent.
The other fun thing was watching the battery gauge fall as we went up the ramp on the 10-57 interchange in San Dimas. Being an early adopter, the commute from Claremont to Orange County was just within the range of his EV. He later went on to be one of the first lessees of the EV1 and was interviewed in Who Killed the Electric Car?
I happen to be in Uruguay right now (from the US). I rented a car -- didn't see an EV option. I've driven from Montevideo to Punta Del Diablo and I haven't seen a charging station :-( I wasn't looking for one, and checking the map just now, they do exist.
Also: Uruguay is awesome.
There are a few in the Interbalnearia/IB/Ruta 1.
https://movilidad.ute.com.uy/carga.html?tab=red-de-carga
Not surprised you haven't seen EVs for rent, since the charging network, although it exists, is woefully unsufficient for non-expert users. Montevideo is a city of ~1.5M people and there are less than 30 charging stations. It's not viable to charge "at home" unless you live in a house; I have never seen an apartment buildings garage prepared for EV charging.
Here is one from Australia
"Bolt-On Kit Wants To Turn Your ICE Car Into A Hybrid From $3,200" October 21, 2023
> The young Australian engineer behind the kit hopes to sell it for just $3,200 and enable buyers to have it installed in a single day
https://www.carscoops.com/2023/10/bolt-on-kit-to-convert-com...
Looks like a backyard operation so far "REVR (Rapid Electric Vehicle Retrofits)"
https://www.revr.tech/
https://www.jamesdysonaward.org/en-AU/2023/project/revr/
REVR-lutionising the car industry: RMIT student crowned national James Dyson Award winner with electric vehicle retrofit solution 13 September 2023 https://www.dyson.com.au/newsroom/updates/james-dyson-award-...
(Sorry for all the links! but looks like an interesting way to do the conversions!)
https://www.revr.tech/news
Poor guys workshop burt down.
Yikes! Looks hopeful as of 3rd of September they say the following on facebook:
> Just a small mid-late month update. Thanks again to everyone who has donated. Small and big all donations make a big difference for our prototyping effort. We are now just waiting on coils and cnc to come through which should be a week or so. We finished clearing away all the rubble from the fire and the new shed is now built and sealed ready to start housing REVR! We have had some very productive discussions and vid calls with people looking to help make REVR happen which we may be able to elaborate on in future. We have also entered the Samsung Solve For Tomorrow comp to promote REVR. There is some more good competition news we can't wait to share. Will have some more substantial updates very soon. - Alex
https://www.facebook.com/revretrofits/
Regular cars were carefully designed to fold like an accordion in case of impact, so people will be safe
Now add to the equation a big flammable battery below the people in the areas designed to fold and you will have a lot of scorching fun if the car that you drive eventually hit something.
Do we really need to explain why this is a recipe for trouble?.
The conversion is labor intensive, and thus it makes sense in the countries where labor is relatively cheap (and regulations are usually more relaxed), and has no way in the US and Western Europe.
The conversion itself is no brainer - you old beat up car with the older and weaker and relatively inefficient ICE engine, may be even carburetor one, becomes more performant, easier to maintain, cheaper to drive (especially given that electricity is frequently government subsidized). And the conversion is pretty cheap if you bring the parts from Alibaba, the prismatic batteries for example are well under $100/KWh.
What is the evolution regarding energy density, I have a PHEV with 11kWh in the trunk. If it was 20kWh, it would cover my daily commute. Are anyone offering battery upgrades to existing EVs?
I'm in the same boat - I have a Volvo PHEV with an 11.6kWh battery, and Volvo upgraded that battery in newer models to 18.8kWh. And the thing is....the battery takes the exact same space as before - it was just an improvement in battery packaging which allowed them to do this. But....I can't fit this newer battery to my car, even though it would physically fit - the systems inside the car will not allow it to work. If there was a company that offered this as a paid upgrade for my car I'd gladly pay for it.
That's a pretty long commute you've got there :(
yeah, 50km each way.
I think my longest commute was 50 miles (Claremont to El Segundo). I used to drive to the Norwalk end of the Green Line to reduce the drive time at the expense of commute time by taking the train the last stretch of the commute. It’s a little stunning to think about all the sense memories I have from that commute 30 years later.
The new solid electrolyte batteries have around 450 Wh/kg, the old liquid electrolyte ones around 270 Wh/kg. Or less for LFP.
You seem shadowbanned and I had to vouch for this comment to make it visible. Your last comments seem ok, so maybe you want to mail dang (the moderator) about your account.
Thanks a lot. I had a suspicion about bring shadowbanned, but couldn't prove it.
"I had a suspicion about bring shadowbanned, but couldn't prove it."
Just look at the comment thread without being logged in. If you can see your comments - all is fine.
There is a thriving forum for ev conversions[0].
[0] https://openinverter.org/forum/
Yep, especially the project forum is full of successful conversions:
https://openinverter.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=11
Also, this community is built around open source (software and hardware) components.
All the retrofits I've seen only have AC charging. Is there a reason why they don't support DC charging, even at lower power if necessary?
Generally speaking since DC charging is so fast, you need to have very tight control over the cooling and performance of the cells or you’ll have issues with longevity. Lots of retrofits just kind of stuff batteries wherever they fit… so cooling isn’t going to be the most effective. By comparison, AC charging, even at 12kW, is quite slow for a decent sized battery pack.
I don’t think there’s any technical/protocol reason you couldn’t do this, it just complicates things quite a bit.
I have built multiple EV conversions and used DC charging.
- AC is easier to start with
- DC charging protocols you need to communicate & negotiate with the rapid charger in the street
- There is no reason why you couldn't DC charge any conversion in principle, just comes down to time & effort
If you want to read more, AC is J1772 and is just a voltage dividing resistor with some PWM https://www.fveaa.org/fb/J1772_386.pdf
For DC there are two (three?) protocols
- ChaDeMo is being phased out despite being the best one (V2G & simplicity of use)
- CCS2 is what the big manufacturers have come up with and it is hilariously complicated. My friend Uwe developed the FOCCCI project that has reverse engineered it
- In the US Tesla are using NACS (not sure on the details)
I am recording a video series where I illuminate the tech behind EVs, charging and energy, you can find it in my submissions.
NACS uses the CCS protocol, which makes dumb adapters possible.
There's more complicated software involved in DC charging due to the much higher power levels, plus more complicated monitoring of the system. AC charging is much more straight forward and simple.
In other words, cost is the issue here. If you have a large budget, you can get the best components. But with a lot of conversions, the whole point is giving a second life to an otherwise relatively worthless car and avoiding the larger expense of getting a proper EV. It doesn't make sense to get tens of thousands of dollars worth of components for that. Simple, easy, and cheap is the whole goal here.
There are some nice conversion kits for things like classic cars where it makes sense to have fast charging. But then we're talking 50-60k in cost and a lot of labor. For that kind of money, you can get several decent second hand EVs or even a new one. Spending that kind of money is only interesting because it's a classic car. E.g. a lot of old porsches apparently drive a lot nicer and better after an EV conversion. Also not having them break down with weird mechanical issues all the time makes driving them more fun. Also, more torque, power, etc.
But you wouldn't do that with some generic consumer car where the whole point of the conversion is avoiding the expense of buying a proper EV. You can get some nice used EVs for under 10K now. Pretty decent ones even.
Several reasons: because AC charging is what people will generally have at their house, so if you only have one charging system that's the one you'd probably go with. Because there are several pretty good AC charging system that are sold to the DIY conversion market. And because EV conversions often run at relatively low voltages compared to OEM vehicles, and DC charge stations generally have a minimum voltage they're willing to charge, which I think is usually somewhere around 400 volts or so.
Large cities in countries where many people can't afford cars, and there's little mass transit, will be more compact. No driving 10 miles to the mall like the USA. Shorter distances, less need for huge battery packs, or the latest technology. Most AC parts can be had off the shelf.
Putting DC charging in an EV is like putting a turbo in a gas car. You can do it, but it'll be expensive and complicated, and you probably don't need it.
Well that’s not really how it works. Even with 22 kW AC (what is rare in Europe) Tesla model Y needs 4 hours to charge from empty to road ready. And it is show stopper, because any petrol car needs 5 minutes to go another 300-600 miles. With DC charger I can have a normal break of 40 minutes and have enough charge for another 300 miles. DC charging is the topic to ease range anxiety and make EVs viable replacement for petrol cars. Without gooood DC charging capability the electric cars are suitable as city cars at best.
Edit: model Y does not support 22 kW AC charging. Only 11 kW AC. And it still takes whole day to fully charge.
The point is that maybe most(some?) people don't need DC charging at all. I've owned our VW e-Up for 3 years now, drive it literally every day, and I never needed to fast charge it because I've not once taken it on a trip longer than its battery range. I just never had a need. In fact I'm just charging it from a normal domestic socket at a meagre 2kW once a week and that's absolutely enough. Obviously it won't work for everyone, but I bet it would work for a whole range of people - some of my friends have definitely never driven more than 100 miles in a day in their cars and they lug around 50 litres of petrol in their tanks "just in case".
I don't know many cities which would challenge a 400km EV range, actually with that range I'm already across the border in any direction I'd drive. But okay I'm one of the dozen or so people who don't live in the US.
I look at car channels on YouTube and there’s all this community around engine swaps and similar so it remains disappointing that there isn’t any real gas->EV equivalent market. I assume part of it is imply lack of secure space for the giant explosive mass that is current lithium battery tech, but it’s still surprising that there’s seemingly next to no option.
There's a UK shop that does EV swaps I follow, they do beautiful vintage cars, even a pair of Ferrari Testarossa's.
They describe themselves as "the world's largest converter of classic cars to electric" while also boasting "our wealth of experience having converted over 70 cars"
Over 70! Next to none indeed.
https://www.electricclassiccars.co.uk/blogs/conversions
It does not exist outside of diy enthusiasts in the west as a used electric car will have more range and be cheaper. So currently it's an enthusiast thing.
The majority of people I've seen on car channels (US only) are ICE-culturists. Fixers, modders, customizers. EV's a dirty word.
I occasionally see these channels when they do EV conversions and it's amusing that they need to do a little disclaimer at the start to prove that they're not some kind of Marxist and prove their ICE credentials just because they're interested in an EV conversion.
You sometimes see similar for anyone working on offgrid solar PV.
Possibly it's just the channels the algorithm feeds me but it feels like engineering reality is slowly penetrating the political fog over time.
Getting a salvage title Tesla and converting any other cars to use the Tesla drivetrain quite popular on my Youtube.
The problem is the vast majority of the cost of an EV is the batteries. You save very little money from not buying other parts, and lose a fair bit of performance.
It's expensive and difficult to do. In the end, you're left with something that cost you more, and is less capable than a new EV.
"giant explosive mass that is current lithium battery tech" <-- full petrol tank is the same, anything that is energy dense like that will have problems with uncontrolled release of that energy.
Equivalent market exists, but is less established, some keywords that might be worth looking at:
- OpenInverter, Fellten, EVWest, diyelectriccar, Lunaz, Everrati, RaleighEV, BradshawEV, LegacyEV, RichRebuilds
> full petrol tank is the same, anything that is energy dense like that will have problems with uncontrolled release of that energy.
We are smarter than this. This is the reason to put the petrol tank in the back. In case of fire, the flames and heat will move back, in the opposite direction to the people in the car.
In this photos I see batteries shamelessly put in the front. This is a nice human barbecue. On a moving car, it means that a fire starting here would move backwards, to engulf directly the people in the car.
And, unlike a gasoline fire, this batteries are basically impossible to stop after they start burning. Not with conventional means.
I want electric cars, but designed to be safe electric cars, not this mess where anybody can turn their car into giant molotov cocktails and drive in the same road as me. Is not only their lives what they are risking.
This is what the world needs.
Do they have charging stations?
I don't have an EV in Southern Europe because there are hardly any charging stations and as we live in apartments you can't charge it at home either as the communal parking doesn't have a charging station.
Which is weird, considering there's 3 phase AC 400V infrastructure everywhere in Europe. Putting 7-11kW slow chargers in every apartment's parking lot would be perfectly doable.
Do note that many apartment buildings in europe are 100+ years old and where not built with parking lots.
Commonly, cars are parked on the street outside, and therefore there is definitely not enough space outside an apartmentbuilding for cars if all apartment owners had one.
In modern, and newly built apartment buildings I imagine that this is probably already in place due to eco-hysteria.
If there's no parking lot, that's a car problem, not an EV problem. This is a hairy issue, but in my experience, getting around in densely packed city centers with a car is asking for trouble - dense traffic and generally no parking spaces.
I did use to live in a place like that, and I stored my car in a P+R on the outskitrts of the city.
> in every apartment's parking lot
Provided there is a parking lot.
Even owning an EV motorbike is sometimes difficult, I have been looking for an e-motorbike/moped and there are only a couple of models with an extractible battery and only one I have found that has the battery that is easily transportable (you pull it like a trolley bagage) when your bike is staying in the street: The Silence S01 and S02 (S01 being also sold under the Seat brand).
I bought my Taiwanese Econelo e-roller from Netto for 1.400 €. I can take out the 5kg battery and carry it upstairs to charge, but I also put down a charging cable from my kitchen to the parking lot. When driving around I have the charger with me, and I usually charge at work also for 2hrs. Because the range is only 40km now.
One of the image captions just says:
> Each new component for the vehicle is custom-made.
... which to me is kinda shocking. Both in terms of the cost of components and the labor needed to figure out each vehicle's specific conversion, this seems expensive, slow, and perhaps is a source of quality/safety concerns.
While I love the idea of being able to convert existing vehicles, more cheaply and with fewer resources than building all-new EVs, I'd think that you'd want:
- standardized components
- standardized math on safety implications (e.g. for the amount of increased mass, how do the breaks need to change to keep a reasonable stopping distance? Given some assumptions about driving speed, where does the center of mass need to be to avoid increased chance of rolling?)
- a slowly expanding database of specifics for each model and year, so if you're converting a previously-converted model, you can just follow a pre-compiled list of steps
As others have said, the article kind of exaggerated the situation -- EV conversions tend to use a lot of fairly standard parts. However, how those parts all fit together varies from one vehicle to another, and there's usually at least some parts that have to be custom made. Battery boxes, motor mounts, adapter plates to mount the motor to the transmission (if the original transmission is kept), and so on.
It'd be great if there were standard EV conversion kits for common ICE vehicles, designed to just bolt in with no fabrication required, designed to the same engineering standards as the original vehicle, and cheap. Something a typical mechanic could install in a week or less. That basically has to exist for EV conversion be a thing that happens on a large scale and not just a difficult and expensive weird hobby project. It's a shame EV tax credits don't apply to conversions -- it could absorb a substantial chunk of the cost. (Maybe some country somewhere does this, but not the U.S. anyways.)
Ideally dealing with extra weight and so on could be a relative non-issue as long as the battery pack is kept fairly small -- which is often the case on EV conversions because a) batteries are expensive and b) it's often hard to find a good place to cram them all. If the batteries are kept low, then center of gravity shouldn't be a problem. Probably better than the original configuration.
I've heard that having more than 50% of the weight on the back tires can be dangerous, as it's much harder to correct if you lose traction. The tendency is to spin out. So, putting all the batteries in the trunk is probably a bad idea in many cases.
There are off-the-shelf standard components for all major parts of the EV drivetrain.
The custom work is mostly in wiring that up, and building a battery cradle and motor mounts that can be installed without compromising car's original structure.
> Both in terms of the cost of components and the labor needed to figure out each vehicle's specific conversion, this seems expensive, slow, and perhaps is a source of quality/safety concerns.
We are speaking about countries where that sort of labor costs between $0.5 to $3 per hour. The parts used aren't factory-new and the cost of labor is minuscule in comparison to the price of the vehicle.
There is no money for safety. You make do with what you have.
Another poster mentioned after taxes vehicles cost 1.5-2x of the US cost. There'd be more money for safety if they weren't so busy taxing the everliving shit out of car buyers.
Well, you're in luck! Most components for converting an ICE vehicle to EV are, in-fact standard.
For example, check out evwest.com - they supply parts and kits to convert ICE cars to EVs.
Geometric relationships between engine mounts, engine itself, and engine output shaft into the transmission varies between each models. Trying to "standardize" that will be like trying to design a one-size-fits-all laptop motherboard; no two models are the same, so it won't work.
> ... which to me is kinda shocking.
I think they try to avoid this...
> In 2021, the Chilean transport ministry passed legislation banning the retrofitting of all used passenger vehicles.
Unless there are major problems, leave the legislation until you have a plan or draft regulation ready. It's 2024 now.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=pakistan+engine...
you should take a look at how things get done in developing worlds.
They're also doing well on share of new cars that are EV:
https://cleantechnica.com/2024/07/20/uruguay-ev-sales-report...
Makes a lot of financial sense when your local grid is hydro heavy and most of your oil is imported.
Can anyone recommend a learning resource or YouTube videos on English? (Autolibre has a course but I believe it's only in Spanish)
There's a lot of videos about EV conversions on YT but they're mostly on the edutainment side not a full on course. Watching RichRebuilds, JerryRigEverything's jeep conversion gives you an overview of the process and they're entertaining if you're completely new to the idea.
Reminds me of Exponential Motors, a startup/project created by a chilean, an argentinean and a mexican in Singularity University, who made somo prototypes converting cars to hybrids with supercapacitors.
https://exponentialmotors.com/
yay my country in HN :-D
Username checks out :)
Saludos desde el otro lado del charco!
And, to contribute something to the discussion: yeah, here in Argentina we have a similar situation. Import taxes are stupid high for some (most) products, making them prohibitively expensive for most people. Although high levels of inequality allow some people to access these kinds of goods, so for exmaple there's a non-zero market for iPhones here.
In the case of EVs, i haven't seen any cars here yet[1] —i suspect because of total lack of infrastructure for them, besides the high prices— but there's quite a lively market of electric scooters in Buenos Aires. They are not that expensive, and people can charge them in their homes.
This Uruguayan initiative of retrofitting electric motors into old cars is encouraging. I hope regulations serve a good purpose like setting good standards, instead of killing the movement outright :/
[1]: There's an Argentinian-made electric car with which i unfortunately share a nickname: Tito. But it's a total scam; a Chinese design ripoff with a ridiculously high price for what it's worth.
10 décimas de saludo al pueblo Argentino :-)
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4bt_ARtcmg
Hi there! I happen to be in Uruguay (from the US) right now, congrats on your amazing country!
Be very welcome, ask if you need hints and tips :-)
We’re in Punta del Diablo right now, and heading back down toward Montevideo (but not all the way) this weekend, then next weekend back to Montevideo to fly out. Any recommendations on where to stop on the way back? Anything important to see along the way?
And what’s up with the random street performers? :-) We’ve seen jugglers and unicyclists at seemingly random street locations, just doing their thing ? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
For those in NJ, I can recommend this place:
https://www.rongrosinger.com/welding-101-sign-up/electric-ve...
I took his class and Ron is great. Sharp, curious and an entertaining teacher.
The key innovation to make Tesla a success was regenerative braking along with the transmission to make it work.
Just replacing the engine with an electric motor and batteries works, but is significantly inferior.
Regenerative braking is so far from being an innovation on Tesla's part. Regenerative braking as a technology has been around since 1886, and was even seen in some of the earliest electric cars at the end of the 19th century (krieger electric landaulet).
Even when you fast forward to modern production cars, the Prius had a regenerative braking system almost a decade before the Tesla Roadster came out.
You might want to check out "Elon Musk" by Vance on what his innovations were with the battery and drive system. Yes, people knew about regenerative braking. When was the last time someone built an electric car with regenerative braking? The Tesla was not built with off-the-shelf batteries and drive systems. Musk originally tried to, but they were unworkable.
I don't disagree, but I also think that the key innovation that Tesla did was to make EVs cool (or at least, non-dorky).
> (or at least, non-dorky).
I always expected the tinfoil hats to raise up when many mainstream series made fun of prius owners being pretentious dorks, or when Musk came out of the closet as a republican and everyone started hating the brand [1].
I half expected them to say that it was the work of big-oil.
[1] https://slate.com/business/2023/07/elon-musk-tesla-owners-tw...
This makes me wonder though wheather the grid infrastructure in Uruguay is ready for a scenario where a substantial percentage of the countries cars need to charge their batteries regularly?
The (state-owned) power company owning the grid and much of the generation for the country has been pushing this change forward. The country has transitioned from almost pure hydro to wind and has an excess of this type of generation, especially at night when it would be the ideal charging time.
There's also initiatives to encourage permanent grid use by the cars since the batteries can provide capacitive load which locally counters the grid's natural inductive load which is beneficial if it can be leveraged.
Charging at night at home - and that is your main option when charging infra is lacking - may even be an improvement for the nation grid's overall health and economics.
This is unfortunately problematic in places where the grid is transitioning to solar power. It really depends on what the makeup of your base load is.
And I'll also add that night-charging can only scale up to a point, there's a point where the country would end up consuming more at night than during the day.
So it really depends on the local situation, local energy mix, local infrastructure.
Charging at a couple of kW for the night is enough for almost everybody. Very few people drive hundreds of kilometers every day and the typical EV needs 10-20kWh/100km. The grid should handle that without a problem in most places, I think. Cars are parked most of the day. If most of the parking spots offer a kW or two charging becomes a nonissue.
Solar power is new development, and it would be naturally to do it in parallel with charging infra in business districts thus providing another sink for all that daytime generated power.
This is amazing. It's a shame how western media and governments aim to cover up such information and then try to regulate the movement out of existence... Again under the guise of 'safety'.
If this movement picks up, you know for sure that governments will be doing PsyOps to stage and draw attention to battery explosions and then claim "Look, we told you it was unsafe." Disgusting.
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Wouldn’t it be cheaper just to drive actual golf carts than to pay to convert?
Yes. Used Nissan LEAF is like $1500 at the lowest end. Same for Prius. Lots of them should be able to continue to roll on the ground for a decade or so on bald tires. It'll be very hard to undercut those.
It would be cheaper to get a BYD imported from China, without the import taxes. That would be a really good car, compared to a converted.
It would be cheaper still to commit suicide directly, and less likely to affect other road users.